Ian Faison & Daniel Incandela

Moments that Matter at Scale


Daniel Incandela, CMO at Reachdesk, shares his insights on the role of authenticity in marketing, moments that matter at scale, and how company values tie into marketing.



0:00

Welcome to DemandGen Visionaries.

0:08

I'm Ian Faison, CEO of Cast Me In Cities.

0:11

And today I'm joined by an old pal and a great guest.

0:16

Daniel, how are you?

0:18

Hey Ian, it's great to be back.

0:19

Good to see you.

0:20

And hello everyone.

0:22

I am Daniel Ankondela.

0:24

I am CMO at a company called Reach Desk.

0:27

I'm about to be here for about three months.

0:30

So still new, still learning, but excited to chat with you today.

0:35

Yeah, excited to hear about Reach Desk and get some special Daniel insights

0:43

here from your background and beyond.

0:45

So let's get into it today.

0:48

Tell us a little bit about who Reach Desk is and who are your customers.

0:54

Sure, Reach Desk is a global gift and platform.

1:00

And so a lot of people in our space will refer to that as direct mail, but we

1:05

are, we market and sell the act of gift giving, which is about as good as it

1:10

gets.

1:11

And gift giving is something that's prevalent in every culture on this planet.

1:17

It's a meaningful experience for human beings.

1:20

So we make that possible, whether it's eGifts, we have our own marketplace

1:24

where you can ship across the world, quickly targeted and with simplicity.

1:31

And so that's what we do.

1:33

And we have a diverse set of buyers, predominantly on the go-to-market side.

1:39

So marketers will buy our product, tied to direct mail or account-based

1:45

marketing.

1:47

Sales will use it as part of their sales cycle and talk to future customers.

1:53

And then customer success teams will use it for renewals or anniversaries or

1:59

special occasions to take care of customers.

2:02

And we're also seeing it happen more and more internally, where companies are

2:08

starting to take much better care of their employees, which is exciting to see

2:12

as well.

2:13

Let's get to our first segment, the Trust Tree.

2:16

This is where you can go and feel honest and trusted and share those deepest,

2:20

darkest, demand-gen secrets.

2:23

Starting off as a CMO, how do you think about demand?

2:28

Gosh, secret around demand-gen.

2:33

My approach has always been it's not just about demand-gen.

2:36

For me, it has to take into consideration all aspects of marketing, certainly

2:41

the brand building or brand awareness part of things and factoring into that.

2:47

And then something I've said my entire career is really great marketing comes

2:51

down to really great storytelling.

2:54

And if you're telling a good story, it becomes less about demand-gen tactics.

2:59

It becomes more about connecting with someone. And once you connect with them,

3:06

a whole world of possibilities open. And so that's been my approach.

3:09

Obviously, I'm measured on a number. I keep my job based on a number and I have

3:13

to hit that number.

3:15

So I'm happy to talk more deeply about some of those specific tactics, but I

3:19

want to take a step back first and say marketing is much more than just a man-

3:24

gen.

3:25

Indeed. And we'll get into those tactics here in a little bit.

3:30

So for Reach Desk, for your customers, how is it bought?

3:37

Do you have a buying committee? Do you have a product like Growth Motion?

3:43

What are we looking at for Reach Desk?

3:45

It follows the format of traditional B2B companies. On the marketing side, we

3:53

are tracking performance on the inbound interest we get as well as how we go

3:59

outbound based on our ICP and TAM.

4:02

And marketing does a lot of the legwork to then hand it off to our sales team

4:06

and then they take care of the rest.

4:09

So that in itself is, you know, that describes almost every software company.

4:15

You know, our buying committee, we kind of touched on this earlier on who's

4:20

buying it.

4:21

You know, it is traditionally at director level or above within marketing or

4:26

sales that is making the decision.

4:29

But along the way, like most software, there are numerous touch points and

4:33

interactions with numerous people where we have to have our story right.

4:38

And treat them in the best possible way.

4:41

And how do you structure your marketing team to go to market?

4:47

So we're a series B company with the smallest marketing team I've ever had.

4:54

So it is built around what is critical to support the business.

5:01

And for me, marketing always comes down to three things. One is demand gen. How

5:06

do we generate enough pipeline?

5:08

The second one is how do we build a strong competitive brand?

5:13

And then the third is how do we contribute to a winning culture?

5:18

And the culture part is always important to me because it can carry and lift

5:22

the team.

5:23

And it equals a bump in metrics that's hard to quantify, but I've seen it and I

5:29

've lived it.

5:30

So the team is structured in that we have a team focused on revenue.

5:35

That is everything from optimizing the performance of website and inbound to

5:41

how we're spending money on digital media.

5:44

To how we're thinking about content that will be engaging.

5:47

We have product marketing and then we have a group focused on taking care of

5:51

the customer.

5:53

And then in between myself and the VP of revenue marketing, jump in to handle

6:00

the more strategic things for the company that pop up.

6:03

Marketing is always at the center of things, which is an absolute honor.

6:07

But it also means that it's not always a marketing job you're doing.

6:12

And what are the size accounts that typically you all are going after?

6:17

It's all over the board. We're starting to see more and more enterprise

6:24

accounts come in, which for a smallish company that's been around two and a

6:26

half years is a wonderful sign.

6:28

We do SMB and a bulk event has been mid-market, but we are growing quickly and

6:35

in fast,

6:37

paced and high growth environments. The company reinvents itself six months to

6:46

adapt and we're certainly living that right now, but all the signs are really

6:47

promising, especially on the type of accounts we're attracting.

6:51

All right, let's dig into some of these tactics and go to our next segment.

6:55

The playbook is where you open up that playbook and talk about the tactics that

6:58

help you win.

6:59

You play to win the game.

7:05

Hello, you play to win the game.

7:09

You don't play to just play it.

7:12

What are your three channels or tactics that are your uncuttable budget items?

7:17

I know it's early. I know you haven't been there super long and it's a series B

7:20

company, but what are you seeing when you came into the role as your uncutables

7:26

Absolutely. I'll talk about it in three buckets.

7:31

One is, how do we spend money?

7:35

Second, not surprisingly, is gifting and then third is is inbound.

7:41

And so all modern marketers are focused on account-based marketing in some way

7:48

or tiering of accounts that they focus on.

7:52

We're no different and we rely heavily on data, our ICP, TAM, and then key

7:58

verticals that we're looking at.

8:01

And so whether it's PPC, display ads, content syndication, whatever it is you

8:09

want to lump into that bucket, that is critical to us because one, it ties back

8:14

to ABM.

8:15

Two, it can drive to specific landing pages or get a demo, which is big for us.

8:23

It's the traditional approach to B2B. But I would say more importantly for us

8:30

as an emerging company, a company that was formed in England and now is seeing

8:34

more and more attraction in the US.

8:37

It also helps on the brand awareness and brand sentiment side of things.

8:42

And so for me, that is something we can't touch. One is going to contribute a

8:47

lot of pipeline.

8:48

But secondly, it's my responsibility to drive this company forward, especially

8:52

on the brand side.

8:54

Second one, gifting, which a lot of people refer to as direct mail.

9:00

Reach desk is my fourth CMO role.

9:03

And in each of my previous roles, direct mail is a channel, has been the

9:07

highest performing and highest ROI channel.

9:11

And so for me, that is untouchable, especially now working for a gifting

9:16

company. It's how we do business.

9:20

And our company vision is that every business is loved by the customer's

9:26

employee and the planet.

9:29

And so a part of this is how do we treat people and two of our great values

9:33

that I love for this company are deliver happiness and treat people like people

9:40

So gifting in itself ties back to the DNA of this company. Our company values

9:44

at vision, how we treat one another, but more importantly, how we treat our

9:49

customers.

9:50

Not to mention it is that nice little touch.

9:54

What we say, deliver moments that matter where you can help build a stronger

10:00

connection to a human being.

10:02

And ultimately B2B is about connecting with humans.

10:05

And so it works, it works on the prospecting side.

10:09

It works on the customer side when it comes to renewals because ultimately we

10:14

want people associated with us to feel special and gifting does that.

10:20

Last one I'll touch on is inbound.

10:23

And inbound I describe as anything coming into the website.

10:26

And my approach since the beginning, especially because I had a background in

10:30

digital, is that the company's website should be treated as a product.

10:34

And so if we're not testing, optimizing every part of the website, we're really

10:43

doing a disservice to the company to reach desk.

10:47

And so anything we can do to ensure that we're driving more and more traffic

10:53

and demand through our key landing pages or CTA's is what we're going to do.

10:59

And ultimately inbound like that is going to be a very low cost exercise for us

11:06

This is essentially strategy in human beings.

11:09

Tied to content.

11:11

I love the idea that marketing is about delivering happiness.

11:19

Obviously your product delivers happiness.

11:22

So of course that's why it's a key company value there.

11:28

But I love the idea that marketing is doing that because I think so often it's

11:40

very product and services, right?

11:41

It's very features and benefits.

11:43

And not so much about delivering that moment that matters to someone.

11:51

And I think that it's a really cool way of thinking about that.

11:55

And I think that more often you'd probably maybe identify that as sales that

11:59

would deliver a moment that matters to someone.

12:02

Obviously they're closing the deal, but we're customer success that would do

12:05

that.

12:06

And it's cool to think about it that marketing would be doing that.

12:09

Yeah, that's a great thing to be a part of.

12:12

You talked about driving traffic to your key pages to drive traffic to the key

12:19

parts of your website.

12:22

How important is your website?

12:26

You touched on it a little bit.

12:28

It's everything I think early in my career it was described as the company's

12:33

brochure, which I'm sure youngsters now would not even really understand what

12:37

that means.

12:38

But it is the gateway into understanding who we are as a company, whether it's

12:43

you're interested in a product or service, or you're applying for a job or just

12:49

want to learn more about us.

12:50

So to me it touches all of the things.

12:53

It represents what we're trying to do in terms of selling.

12:58

It is a sneak peek into the company's culture and how we behave.

13:04

And then finally it's also a way of just getting to know the company more and

13:11

potentially attracting the best talent.

13:14

And those are all things that marketing should be thinking about. It's why the

13:19

third thing that I always focus on as a marketing leader is culture because it

13:23

's so critical.

13:24

So for me it covers all three of those things.

13:28

But ultimately when I think about my responsibilities, especially to pipeline.

13:35

Inbound itself is going to provide a big chunk of that. And certainly key CTA's

13:41

whether it's someone someone raising their hand and saying I would like a demo.

13:46

Means that it is going to be.

13:50

A higher sales price.

13:54

Faster sales cycle.

13:57

And a better close rate on the sales side.

14:01

And so obviously anything we can do to direct people to their is gravy for a

14:06

marketer. It's critical.

14:10

But I also believe that the website is so fundamentally important when you're

14:15

trying to build a brand, which you're trying to do where a young company.

14:19

And certainly in this day and age where I believe the employees are in the

14:23

driver's seat when it comes to their careers,

14:26

it's impacting the very best talent because for us to scale the way we want to

14:29

and hit our vision.

14:31

We've got to have great people. It's all about the people.

14:35

Yeah, so if you're listening and you're looking for a great place to go, go to

14:40

reach desk and figure out a way to get on to Daniel's team.

14:46

Because he's great. Thank you. Thank you.

14:49

You mentioned that Sir fourth time being a CMO.

14:59

Why isn't this more common knowledge? Because I feel like when we talk to

15:02

people about gifting that at a minimum, people talk about how it's R O I

15:10

positive.

15:11

It's very rarely a conversation that it's not an R O I positive thing. And yet.

15:18

I don't know if it's as common. I mean, that's why obviously, Cody's like reach

15:22

desk exists, but it doesn't feel as common everywhere.

15:27

You see elite marketing teams doing it for sure or sales teams or customer

15:30

success teams. So why isn't this more common place?

15:35

I think you touched on it. It is commonplace. I think it's an unspoken thing.

15:40

And I look at the growth of reach desk and that says it all to me.

15:46

And then you look at the competitors in our space. There are some formidable

15:51

companies that are focused on gifting.

15:54

And so it is becoming its own market in itself.

15:59

We're going from it being more of a feature to an actual category, in my

16:05

opinion.

16:07

But I think it dates back to the early days of direct mail and that it is such

16:13

a clunky, annoying thing to do.

16:17

It's often some, some poor marketer that has pulled a list and then is

16:22

organizing things from a closet to pack it up themselves.

16:27

And then they have to find time after work to go to somewhere to ship it and

16:31

then you hope for the best.

16:34

And their company is still doing that. But in this day and age, it's totally

16:39

changed.

16:40

Reach desk. We have a dedicated platform for it.

16:45

When you say companies are doing it today, I literally did that on Friday.

16:49

I went nice and I personally went and sent a bunch of T-shirts to cast me in

16:53

employees this Friday.

16:55

Which is wonderful.

16:58

I mean, your employees are going to love that. And I'm sure it felt good to be

17:02

doing something around giving,

17:04

but I'm sure you would love to not have to deal with all the tedious activity

17:08

that goes into that.

17:10

So we take that out. We have warehouses all over the world. So we can ship

17:15

globally.

17:17

We take care of it for marketers so they don't have to worry about it.

17:23

It's trackable. We have incredible insights so you can track it back to the

17:28

campaigns that you're running.

17:30

And so this is a game changer, not just for gifting or direct mail as a channel

17:36

but when I think about any companies that are doing good account-based

17:41

marketing, for me, gifting is kind of the cherry on top of a great ABM campaign.

17:48

Because most ABM is all digital or a Zoom meeting or a virtual event.

17:56

And the fact that you can provide them with something 3D intangible makes all

18:00

the difference.

18:02

And if we're talking about deliver moments that matter, direct mail or gifting

18:07

is that thing that allows for you to connect to a human being by being

18:11

thoughtful.

18:13

And it goes back to what I said at the beginning is that every culture gives

18:17

gifts.

18:18

We all do. It is part of being a human being.

18:23

Yeah, I think that this is one of my favorite topics, and I love talking about

18:29

gifting in general,

18:30

but it's also one of my favorite topics to talk about anything that is

18:33

remarkable that makes you talk about something with someone else.

18:38

And that is the point of marketing. You want to remark about it and go to your

18:43

spouse and go, "Hey!"

18:44

And your spouse goes, "Where did that chair that shaped like a banana for our

18:49

son come from?"

18:51

And you're like, "Actually, let me tell you, this is the craziest thing."

18:55

These people are trying to sell to me, and they knew we had a young son, and

18:59

they knew that I had mentioned on a call that he loves bananas,

19:02

and they sent this banana chair, and our kid loves it.

19:07

That is a conversation that would have never happened without marketing, and it

19:11

's something memorable, and it's something cool.

19:13

And when you think about the next generation of what gifting looks like, hyper-

19:17

personalized, hyper-individualized, very cool, very value-add,

19:24

that you'll look back years from now and say, "The stuff that we were doing

19:29

with our marketing dollars back then was kind of dumb."

19:34

I mean, we couldn't do it because we didn't have the technology, and we didn't

19:38

have the logistics capacity and all these different things.

19:41

But at the end of the day, I think that we're going to look in the future and

19:44

say, "We could have been doing this way better, but now we are."

19:51

Do you feel like low-hanging fruit that marketers can look at for gifting that

20:00

they're not doing right now?

20:04

Marketers or revenue teams or customer success people, is it just about giving

20:11

people something?

20:12

Is it about giving someone something? What's the least effort, most revenue

20:19

version of this?

20:21

The thing that I have been most impressed with is there was a... I got prospect

20:29

ed probably a year or two ago, and this person had done research on me.

20:37

And sent me a gif with a nicest note, so it didn't come off as being intrusive

20:41

or creepy in that I had been stalked.

20:44

It was clearly someone that was just good at their job.

20:48

And so I'm a huge soccer fan, and my favorite team is Mentioned United, and

20:55

this BDR sent me basically like a 3D puzzle of the stadium for Mentioned United

21:03

, old Trafford.

21:05

And I was so touched by that. And so ordinarily, I delete most prospecting, I

21:12

never pick up my phone, but I took time to respond to him.

21:18

And even though I was not going to buy the product, thank him, and basically

21:23

told him what a great job he was doing.

21:27

And that's the first thing I thought of when you asked that, and that all came

21:32

from a gift as someone just being thoughtful.

21:36

And the team at Reach Desk does that really well, in that they will try to be

21:41

thoughtful, and you can only be thoughtful if you get to know someone or take

21:46

an interest in them.

21:48

And from what I've seen, it doesn't cross that line of feeling intrusive, like

21:52

it does sometimes. It's not like in LinkedIn when you accept a request and then

21:57

certainly, you know, 10 seconds later you get a prospecting email.

22:01

We are all about making connections, and I keep saying deliver moments that

22:06

matter. There are no strings attached to that. That's just who we are as a

22:10

company.

22:11

If it leads to a connection, great, but if it's just make someone's day, that's

22:14

what we're going to do. So, I think taking the time and effort to get to know

22:21

someone.

22:22

And B2B, we often think of, you know, a prospect as a company. It's not as a

22:27

human being.

22:28

Think of them as a human being and market to them or get their attention in a

22:32

way you would another human being, a friend or something. And that goes just

22:38

back to authentic marketing, telling a good story, and tying it all back to

22:44

your company values.

22:46

And I don't see a lot of companies doing that, but it was a huge part of why I

22:51

joined Reach Desk. I want to be part of something bigger than myself.

22:57

And we're here to deliver happiness.

23:01

It's funny when you think about this as kind of like a data problem, which is,

23:06

you know, back in the day we didn't have CRMs. So we didn't know what was going

23:12

on with our sales and marketing and all that sort of stuff.

23:18

But now we do have that stuff and a bunch of information gets dropped in there

23:22

about, you know, somewhere in someone CRM, it says, you know, Daniel is a man

23:27

you fan, unfortunately.

23:30

But, especially the season. Yeah.

23:34

I was just gonna say, especially right now. Yep. But so, you know, it's

23:42

somewhere in there. But is that is that little piece of information actionable,

23:46

or was that just like a smart sales person who ended up being able to connect

23:51

the dots really well?

23:52

What about like the non savvy salesperson who maybe they have that information

23:56

in there and they don't they're not able to take action on it. And I think that

24:00

that's part of the thing that's so exciting about gifting is it's actually just

24:04

as much a data issue in an in an information gathering.

24:09

And that's what salespeople are supposed to be doing and are supposed to be

24:14

great at is they are gathering information that you wouldn't be able to know

24:19

and figuring out ways, you know, to do that stuff.

24:23

That's what's so exciting for me about as a marketer is like, if we had that

24:27

information, we could create personalization that matters, but and deliver

24:31

moments that matter but but but but right now we're not yet in that kind of

24:36

mode.

24:37

I think we're definitely headed there. Yep. And if we were, you know, we were

24:42

talking about the early days of gifting and direct mail and it being so labor

24:46

ious.

24:47

You know, reach desk integrates with the CRM's marketing automation and then

24:53

provides insights reporting to show the success of the campaign in pipeline

24:59

dollars.

25:01

And so, one, I think all companies are going to start viewing gifting in a

25:06

totally different manner in that you can be kind and generous upfront and and

25:12

see the results of that.

25:15

But you'll also be able to see the type of campaigns or approaches that work or

25:20

don't.

25:21

And then I think what you'll see behind that, the layers behind that are that

25:26

it's when you do go the extra mile to to think about the B2B company as as a

25:31

human being and what what you can tailor to their interests.

25:36

That makes the biggest difference. And that's where we're headed.

25:40

What have you seen on the platform that people are sending that's working

25:43

versus what's what are you seeing that's not working.

25:47

A couple of things in that through eGift cards.

25:54

You know, there are options to donate to a charity instead of, you know,

25:59

getting a little bit each card or whatever and that is incredibly successful

26:05

and popular, which is so nice to see.

26:08

Because it's a testament to all the people that we're doing business with.

26:14

I think booze remains critical. And I'm guessing after two years of a pandemic

26:20

that makes total sense.

26:22

But, you know, bottles of tequila or wine are always going to be a big hit.

26:29

What about like swag from your company or stuff like that. Is that like, hey, I

26:34

don't know you. Why would I want to wear this t-shirt or is it like, hey, this

26:38

is a free t-shirt.

26:40

It's super comfy and like, actually I'm going to wear it because I know we all

26:43

have a million t-shirts from events that we've gone to and stuff like that that

26:46

we still wear because we're like, actually, this shirt is just feels great.

26:50

Yeah, it's I'm going to sound like I'm in a cult here and I don't mean it to

26:53

sound that way. I'm just just love what I'm doing right now.

27:00

I've received so much swag and I have so many yeti mugs upstairs in my kitchen

27:06

from different companies. I love those.

27:11

But I'm not one to wear logos or anything, but I do wear a lot of reach desk.

27:18

And part is I'm just proud to be a part of what we're trying to do.

27:23

And I've noticed just how willing our customers and partners are in terms of

27:33

working with us, you know, whether that's a case study or testimonial or what

27:37

we track a lot is when we do send gifts.

27:40

A lot of people take photos and so, you know, we track that and post about it.

27:47

And so I think there is, there's a movement happening of gift giving is just

27:55

the right thing to do.

27:57

It's the way to go. It's how you operate as a good company.

28:01

And so if you go to the homepage or website, you'll see some of the gifts that

28:05

are posted from customers or prospects or partners that we've sent where people

28:10

are just so excited to have received something.

28:14

And again, it's not just the gift of just sending something random. It's the

28:19

extra step of really getting to know someone and thinking about them.

28:25

Do you have a channel or a tactic that you've done over the years and maybe you

28:29

're not going to be investing in in the future or something that's that's out

28:33

there that you're seeing and you're saying like, ah, that's, that's, it's, it's

28:40

a very cuddable budget item.

28:43

I still have a lot of confusion around events.

28:52

And, you know, it is a traditional model for B2B companies to do either road

28:58

shows at various locations across the US or globally.

29:04

Or even investing in a big customer conference. And I'm guessing we will do

29:11

those, but certainly with COVID.

29:14

Certainly with the emergence of virtual events, which we have an offering to

29:20

for virtual experiences that ties into gifts as well.

29:24

It's just a hard thing to predict right now of when to really start investing

29:31

or not. So we're, we're doing a few things this quarter.

29:38

Going to ramp it up again in Q2, but you just don't know what's going to happen

29:41

in this world. And so that to me is a challenging one.

29:48

But two years ago, field marketing events were huge.

29:53

You know, and, and when the pandemic hit initially, I was a conga and we saw 35

29:59

, 40% of the pipeline disappear, because we weren't going to be doing events.

30:05

So I think ultimately that is going to be a big thing in the future. It's just

30:08

knowing when to go all in or not. It's, it's a bit of a gamble.

30:13

Fascinating.

30:16

Yeah, it is a bit of a gamble. And we don't know. And you could say, well, if

30:20

that was, you know, if it was doing 30 to 40% then, then what would it do now?

30:26

And it's like, well, I don't know, we've made it work for the last two years.

30:29

So two people stayed doing business like this, or, or is that an area.

30:35

Did we find an edge by not doing that?

30:39

Or is the edge going back?

30:43

Let me know what you find out.

30:47

Yes. Hey, we're, we're asking everybody. We'll see how it goes.

30:52

We've heard some good, good, good answers and good approaches on events on the

30:57

show. Nothing conclusive yet, but it's still so early. But I think like by, you

31:01

know, if you're listening to DGV a year from now, I think we're going to have a

31:05

much better.

31:06

We're going to have a lot of the people on that we, that people like you that

31:09

are, that are figuring stuff out that a year from now. We'll know a little bit

31:16

more.

31:18

Do you have a favorite campaign that you've run so far? I know that you think

31:22

about campaigns and pipeline and driving leads a little, little different than

31:26

perhaps the average, average marketer.

31:29

I just mentioned customer conferences and I love working on those because yeah,

31:36

either one.

31:37

Yeah, it could be a short call. It could be a three-year manifestation of a

31:41

company's brand.

31:43

It takes the entire company to put one on.

31:46

But as a marketer, you have to think about everything. And that is the design

31:51

of the event, the content of the event, the digital strategy to drive the

31:56

attendance of the event, the website.

31:58

So on.

32:00

Then it goes into the actual ad event experience, the branding of the event,

32:04

the way you're going to take care of customers and prospects and partners at

32:08

the event, the content that you have to organize the schedule, the food that

32:12

you're going to serve, the types of drinks, the evening.

32:17

Fun that you have to figure out all of those things come into one thing that

32:22

last, you know, sometimes 72 hours and then it's done.

32:28

But I have loved every aspect of that because it is the biggest challenge for a

32:33

marketer because you have to think of every single asset channel.

32:38

And it's got to be done in an innovative way because you're always trying to

32:43

outdo the previous event that you've organized.

32:47

So I just love events in that regard because I also love a challenge and they

32:54

are always a disaster, but it always looks good.

32:59

Indeed. All right, let's get to our next segment, the desktop, where we talk

33:09

about healthy tension. That's with your board, your sales team, your competitors or anyone else. Daniel have you had a memorable dust up in your career.

33:13

I've had many memorable dust up and for a long time I avoided them, especially

33:20

younger in my career because as you get older, you just get more comfortable in

33:25

your own skin and experienced and so on.

33:28

But for the longest time, my approach was to try and get along with everyone

33:33

and try to get everyone to like me.

33:36

And I quickly realized that wasn't possible. So there's one piece of advice

33:41

that I give myself all the time, which sounds a little harsh.

33:46

It's not meant to be, but it's really helped me. And that is, thinking about my

33:51

job at work is not to be friends with anyone.

33:54

My job at work is to be the best CMO for the company. And if there are

33:59

friendships that emerge, that is a wonderful outcome of the job.

34:04

But when I started to think about it that way, I became a lot less sensitive to

34:09

what others thought or if they got upset and so on.

34:14

So I could just focus on the details, the facts and the fact that I'm hired to

34:20

deliver results for the company.

34:23

Doesn't mean I don't try to approach everything with kindness and compassion.

34:29

I am also a very direct communicator, which can sometimes not be well received,

34:37

often is well received. And pipeline is such a big thing to talk about for

34:46

marketers.

34:48

And a CMO is often charged with owning all aspects of partners. And so it could

34:55

be marketing sourced. It could be sales development based on where they sit.

35:01

It could be AE self-gen. And it could be partner sourced.

35:07

And so I've had a lot of questions over the years from the CEO, the board,

35:11

other execs of what's happening with pipeline.

35:15

And so I've had to be very direct with other leaders, whether it's a CRO ahead

35:20

of partners and so on.

35:22

To push them on their accountability around that. And as a result, I've formed

35:29

some wonderful relationships with humans in those roles.

35:35

And as a result, I am probably never going to speak to some of them ever again.

35:41

And that's okay because there are billions of people on this planet, not

35:45

everyone's going to like me.

35:47

But I found that I do always try to approach things with kindness and

35:53

compassion, but also very directly.

35:57

That tends to work, but sometimes it's just not going to. And I'm always going

36:03

to advocate for what I think is best for my team and for the company,

36:07

especially when it comes to performing and holding ourselves accountable

36:10

because I certainly hold a marketing accountable for everything.

36:15

And any marketer will agree with this is that when you work in marketing,

36:18

everyone in the company thinks they're a marketer.

36:22

So you're always going to get feedback or ideas or criticism, and that's just

36:26

part of the job.

36:28

But if that's the way it's going to be, then I'm also going to call out others

36:32

if I don't feel like they're helping the cause either.

36:39

Any thoughts on some trends that are coming or things that you're excited about

36:46

coming up or any stuff that from marketing perspective that has been on your

36:54

mind lately?

36:56

You know, one trend we talked about events, and so whether it's, you know, I

37:01

think it's going to be a hybrid regardless. So the virtual experiences that

37:06

companies are doing now where it's, it goes beyond the zoom type event and

37:13

brings in activities and gifts, I think, is we're going to see more of that.

37:18

And then how that connects to in person events, certainly keep my on that.

37:25

I think that the CMO and CRO relationship, you know, it's always been important

37:32

, but I think at the board level and exact team level.

37:38

They are starting to see it in a different light, and I think the CMOs and CROs

37:44

that will join together as it's kind of band of brothers, so to speak, or

37:49

sisters.

37:51

It is the way we're going to see more and more organization organizations

37:55

operate.

37:57

I can generate all the pipeline in the world, but if sales isn't closing it, we

38:03

're not successful.

38:05

Or if we're generating zero, we're not giving sales a chance.

38:10

So we got to stop talking about these two groups like cats and dogs, and really

38:16

talking about them in the same way.

38:19

And I'm just hearing more and more conversations around that.

38:25

This is so cliche, but data is all about data and the insights it can provide

38:31

you in making decisions and driving the right campaigns and we're getting more

38:37

and more of it.

38:38

So I envision the function of what is now known as marketing operations,

38:45

becoming more aligned to like a data scientist type role, where we're going to

38:52

start seeing aspects of marketing become more productized so that we can cope

38:58

with the amount of data that's coming from our product,

39:02

website, Zoom info, some board, like on and on and on.

39:07

We've got to be able to use that. I'm guessing most teams are not.

39:12

Yeah, we have a new podcast coming that's going to be talking all about ops

39:18

coming up here soon.

39:21

A little teaser for the audience.

39:24

I love it.

39:25

All right, let's get into quick hits. Your quick questions and quick answers,

39:33

just like how quickly you can talk to someone how prospect talked to someone.

39:35

If they're on your website, if you're using qualified, go to qualified dot Cond

39:39

olear more qualified prospects on your website right now and you can talk to

39:43

them quickly with qualified quick easy just like these questions go to

39:48

qualified dot Condolear more.

39:50

Quick hits.

39:51

Danny, are you ready?

39:52

I believe so.

39:54

What is a hidden talent or skill that is not on your resume?

40:03

I am very much an introvert, which means I observe. I believe I have a very

40:08

good read on human beings.

40:11

What is a book or a podcast or TV show that you've recently been checking out

40:17

and would recommend?

40:19

TV show. I am on a big South Korean kick right now.

40:24

So, believe the one I'm the one I'm watching now is Sisyphus.

40:30

I hope I got that right.

40:33

I'm a little bit more than I should have.

40:44

I'm a little bit more than I should have.

40:52

I think it was a marketer pushing the boulder uphill.

41:03

Podcast, I'm always a sucker for how I built this. I just love the stories of

41:07

what entrepreneurs and founders go through to actually get where they land.

41:16

I'm also a huge, it's always sunny in Philadelphia fan. I'm listening to the It

41:23

's Always Sunny podcast right now, which is great insight into different shows,

41:27

different episodes.

41:29

The book I always reference, business book is creativity ink, which is the

41:36

story behind Pixar and their culture of how they drive creativity and

41:41

innovation.

41:43

I was fortunate to read that at an early stage in my career and really shaped

41:48

it.

41:49

It's a book I often give away as a gift.

41:52

I love it. I haven't actually read it. So, maybe that's got to be on my to-do

41:56

list here.

41:58

I think I know what I'm going to do after this show.

42:04

What's your favorite non-marketing hobby that sort of maybe indirectly makes

42:09

you a better marketer?

42:12

I'd say one and a half things. One is that I started a newsletter for myself.

42:19

One, so I could focus on just the monthly routine of writing and thinking and

42:26

gathering content.

42:29

And some people signed up. So, now people actually read it, but the goal is

42:33

just for me to write.

42:35

Writing is such an important part of being a marketer. And again, it goes back

42:41

to storytelling. Where can they find it? Where can the listeners find it?

42:45

Substack. So, it's called the ink. But if you go to, I believe, Daniel Incand

42:51

ela.substack.com or one of those, it's on there.

42:57

What advice would you give to a first time CMO who's trying to figure out their

43:03

demand-gen strategy?

43:05

Two hires. Hire a really good demand-gen leader. And then hire a really good

43:12

marketing operations person.

43:14

I am not a natural demand-gen leader. My love for marketing is a blend of

43:18

revenue, brand, and culture.

43:21

And that's where I like to live. So, I have always had really great demand-gen

43:27

leaders on my team.

43:29

I believe I have given them sufficient credit and thanks for the work that they

43:34

do. So, hire really well in that area.

43:37

And then we were talking about data earlier. And if you can't make sense of the

43:41

data today, you're going to miss the mark.

43:44

So, investing in marketing operations is key.

43:48

Daniel. That's all we got for today. Any final thoughts? Anything to plug?

43:56

Obviously, you're hiring.

43:57

So, for our marketers, go check out. And there's some open positions. Go to

44:02

reachdesk.com/careers to check out some positions.

44:09

And obviously, if you need a gifting partner, check out reachdesk.com. Anything

44:15

else?

44:16

I think you did a great job. You're hired yourself. Thank you. And no, you can

44:22

find me on LinkedIn.

44:24

Feel free to reach out if you are interested in anything, especially a job. And

44:30

I would say keep an eye on reachdesk.

44:33

In the next couple of months, we have some really, really exciting things

44:36

coming up.

44:37

I love it. Daniel, thanks again. Always great chatting with you. And we'll talk

44:41

soon.

44:42

Thanks so much, Ian.

44:44

[Music]

44:54

(upbeat music)