Uncuttable: What Today's Top CMOs Are Going All In On
Lean marketing budgets require a discerning eye and careful planning to maintain momentum. Hear how these leading CMOs approach their budget planning in tough times and where they're investing their energy and dollars in the second half of 2023.
Okay. Hi everyone and welcome to Pipeline Thummett. Today we're going to be
talking about
uncuttable budget items. This is a segment that's inspired by our podcast,
Pipeline Visionaries.
And I think it's a hot topic right now. I think all of us as CMOs are looking
left, we're
looking right, we're asking each other, how are you thinking about budget? How
are you
thinking about spend? How are you thinking about where to lean in and where to
pull back?
So I'm super excited about this segment and we have two all-star CMOs with us
today. We
have Kyle Lacey from Jellyfish and Jane Alexander from CARTA. So welcome, Kyle
and Jane. Thank
you guys for joining us. Thanks for having us. So I'd love to start just with
an elevator
pitch. Tell us about Jellyfish and CARTA. I think as we talk about investments,
it's
important that we understand what are the companies you work for, who are the
customers you serve,
because I think that is just a good backdrop before we go into kind of the
programs you're
starting with. So Jane, quick elevator pitch of CARTA, equity management. Can
you tell
the audience a little bit about the company and yourself? Totally. So we at CAR
TA build
equity infrastructure for the most innovative companies and funds in the world.
So we help
companies solve their equity administration problems with cap cables and
compensation
guidance and tax advisory services and liquidity solutions. And we help venture
firms with their
back office through a funded administration and SPV and KYCA ML offerings. And
we're
expanding outside of just venture backed tech and providing those solutions for
private
equity backed companies or even non private equity backed companies. Even the,
I was a
huge fan of Flower and Water here in San Francisco, Dara Carta customer,
because they give their
employees equity, which I so, so admire and we're seeing that trend outside of
Silicon
Valley more and more. So that's what we do at CARTA. We're powering the people
who are
creating more owners in the world. And I've been there for about four years,
lucky to serve
that mission. That's great. We're huge fans and customers of CARTA here at Qual
ified.
Thank you very much. I think a very different solution, a jellyfish, but in the
tech space.
So can you tell us a little bit about kind of you and your role and your
company? Well,
I'm Kyle. I'm also a CARTA customer, which I think most of you on this at this
event can
say you probably are jellyfish is an engineering management platform. So it
helps engineering
leisure leaders measure the value and productivity as their teams, much like a
sales leader,
what a market. So it's tracking stun on product innovation, the business impact
of the team.
Ultimately, our mission is to turn engineering leaders into business leaders.
And that's what
jellyfish. That's how that's why we exist and why we do what we do. What a,
what a necessary
solution. I feel like so many times engineering teams are kind of in the
background and to elevate
that is hugely important. Yeah, we've all been in board meetings where the
product room map was
shown and we were talking about headcount capacity. So it's definitely
something that is needed in
the market and something that works. That's great. And I'm excited about this
panel today because
you guys work for two different companies, obviously, kind of different time
and seat.
Jamie, you've been CMO for two and a half years. Kyle, you've been CMO at a ton
of companies,
but you've been with jellyfish for about eight or nine months, different size
companies. So I
think you guys will bring differing perspectives in the best of ways. So to
start off, Jane,
I'd love to hear from your perspective. I mean, it's been a turbulent year, I
think, to say the least.
I think it's been a challenging time for most tech companies out there and us
as marketing
leaders as we think about how we kind of survive and thrive through these times
I'm curious to hear, how are you feeling about just the overall landscape right
now and what
challenges are you facing as a CMO and do you think other CMOs are facing today
Yeah. Well, and I'd say there are only two categories of challenges CMOs are
facing.
The first and only most overwhelming is the market challenges that we're seeing
. I mean,
we at CARTA in many ways were in index of the entry ecosystem. So if fewer
funds are being
formed, that has a material impact for us. And so the first and foremost
challenge is really,
how do you combat that reality of fewer commodities getting started, fewer
venture funds getting
started, fewer SPVs, especially after any of these crazy years we had in 2021,
2022.
And then the second would be there is like this whole wave of headwinds coming
on just around
classic marketing strategy that you have to pay attention to. So how are you
thinking about like
a cookieless world? How are you thinking about the impact of AI on email
marketing? Is everybody's
inbox just going to get flooded by relaxed, like are they going to pay
attention to your fault?
So you have to have these kind of two competing challenges to think through. I
think both of
them are actually really fun challenges to work on their heart. But I love
being believer like
the heart is what makes it fun. So on the macro challenges, we're thinking a
lot of not just
how can we get more pipe. I think that's the easiest answer. That's where
everybody goes first.
But how do you make more out of the pipes that you have? So how do we start
helping really make
sure if anybody comes to our website, they're going to be on our opportunity
for a salesperson
and we're a single person. If it's an opportunity for our salesperson, how do
we impact you delete,
how do we impact conversion rate, how do we impact ACB? We're tackling as I've
executed
to them a lot more about all levers we have to drive the business versus just
make that top of
file and go up and up. Like are we making the most out of what we have? And I
think we'll talk
later on some of the how we're dealing with some of the marketing specific
challenges. But I think
that's a really fun opportunity for us to get creative and to think about where
are you will
get just as a company. I think you nailed it. I mean, you talked about the
economic headwinds.
You talked about new playbooks arising where you can't rely on your tried and
true strategies
anymore. And then the focus on quality pipeline, which is paramount. Kyle,
where's your head at
as a CMO? What challenges are you facing? What do you think our peers are
facing right now with
everything going on in the world? Yeah, I think that it's everything that Jane
said. I mean, I do
think as a marketing team, we always focused on top-wide revenue. But we also
are focusing on
customer customer retention, making sure that not that we didn't never think
about it before.
But it's top of mind because of the macro environment and what's happening with
small businesses and
mid-market and pretty much everybody is being affected by this. So for me, it
still goes down
to the fundamental of experiences and how do we create the best experiences
possible for the
people who are interested in what we do? It usually goes to the website. Jane
mentioned it.
You want everybody who visits to have a good experience so that if they have
been thinking
about buying the solution that you've offered, they're going to raise their
hand. And you better
hope that the process of them raising their hand is an enjoyable experience.
And you're not
stirring your sales team over whoever's taking the call. So for me, it's still
back to the
fundamentals of what we were thinking about in 2018, 2020, 2021. But it's more
around the
prioritization of time. It's important because you just don't have enough
resources or you don't
have the resources that you used to have in this environment. Absolutely. I
mean, I think that's a
great segue into talking about prioritization because we don't all have the
budgets we did 18
months ago or the team sizes perhaps. And Kyle, you came into your role nine
months ago. I'm curious,
how do you think about building out of a framework for programs and marketing
spend? And how do you
make decisions on what to maybe cut what falls below the line? So I've always
approached budget
as a 70 30 split 70% of what we spend headcount and and resourcing goes to
demand. How we producing
demand and 30% goes to more of the brand plays. And you can grow brand plays in
any way you want.
Vents up billboard on a highway, it doesn't matter to me. You know, in a in
this side of
environment is really focused on making this 70% as efficient as possible. So
you can still spend on
the brand plays because when the world is ending for a lot of people, it's
beginning for some.
And the people that can can take advantage of this environment will ultimately
win on the other
side of it if they do it appropriately. But you have to find the efficiencies
in the pay channels
where you're sending people the website or get a search, you know, we don't
need to get too
tactical. But that will allow you to spend money on the content place, the own
place, which I know
Jane, you talk about the podcasting the how do you how do you make more impact
in the content
production instead of just, you know, spending everywhere. And I think the
people who delve down
on brand over the next couple of years are going to win in their markets
because they've done it
appropriately and efficient. But efficiency can be found easier on paid
channels, some of the other
demand channels. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I think a need
your reaction right now
is turn off brand plays because you can't always prove the ROI. How do you
prove, you know, the dollar
you're getting in return. But are you just like, are you just halting all of
this work you've put
in over the last years to build up your brand and are taking that away. So,
Jane, how do you think about investment in kind of traditional demand gen
tactics first brand?
Carter has an incredible brand. You guys just did a website relaunch within the
last year.
We always look to you guys for kind of what you're putting into market. But how
do you think about
that that mix? Kyle said 70 30. Where's your head at with those investments?
Yeah, well, I'll say and first of all, thank you for shooting the web team. I
'll be thrilled to hear
that. I'll say there's a real difference between brand not having an impact on
revenue and you
not being able to directly tie that impact using your Google ads nature. This
is very different
proposition. And I think the need your reaction for people to shut off brand is
totally rational.
They're like, you know, it's like a finance person with a spreadsheet and they
're like,
this doesn't dry revenue. I can't see the tie turn off. They're right. That
makes sense. But
it's our job to be able to really understand what's the difference be able to
see through the fall.
This actually, I hear you. Like it's not a cat. I can't tie the key word to the
dollar for you.
But let me shut it off for you for a month and see what happens. And like we've
done it a couple
times in it. You can see it. There's this little bit of some things. Yeah, like
even for a billboard,
like I can't justify it. I shut off the billboards when I took the job. But
there are certain things
we do all this data marketing where we like share data that kind of has. And
like that works. I
can only see half of it through the UTM. But like it works. It's driving
revenue for us. So I think
it's important to distinguish between brands like driving or not driving
revenue versus what you
can see given the tooling available. And those are very different things. On
prioritization,
I have a talk to the team a lot about this concept of the difference between
focus
and prioritization. I'm a big fan of focus. I hate prioritization. And I think
we're all
trained to prioritize. We have a list of 10 things and they're in the perfect
list. And then we have
like 10 meetings about should this thing be number eight or number nine. And
then let's have a follow
up meeting because like our sizing and scoping wasn't perfect. And it doesn't
matter because you're
not going to get to eight. Like who cares? Just do three. Like you know what
the top three are.
You don't need like you know quantum shizex to understand what the top three
things are.
Just go do that and do that as quickly and as efficiently like Kyle was talking
about is possible.
Get off your plate and then you can move on to the next. And the world may have
changed. Your
prioritization may not be right that you did three months ago. You may need to
adjust it anyway.
So I'm a big fan of like be super tight with the rest of the business. Like if
our focus is all
one part of the business are all over focus needs to be there compounding
matters. And then I tell
the team like don't have 10 things on your list like have three and do there
were really well and
do them really fast. And then you can get to the next three. Nothing's worse
than trying to do
10 things and not doing anything well like prioritization actually keeps you
from the compounding because
usually it it people just can't figure out how to move forward. And when that
happens they're not
actually oriented at all stop pro act and the compounding thing that Jane I
mean you can't
that's that's the whole reason I do the job is because that's that's the most
exciting part
is that you're if you're actually in and it works. Totally. And then people get
upset. They're like
well you ran this campaign for us and it didn't do anything. Well of course it
didn't do anything
it had like you know I wrote it all weekend. Yeah like it was 10th raw list. It
's just harder
like you have to make the hard call and have that because there's someone in
the business who
that's their top priority and so you have to have that really hard conversation
like the person
being like listen I know this is your top priority but it's not ours this
quarter and I would rather
give you something good next quarter than give you something that like lie to
you and give you
something for this quarter. Yeah. And not you when your time comes we're behind
you. And you worry
yeah you just need a line that across the company on that. Absolutely and our
last pipeline
summit I interviewed John Miller of demand base and he was talking about how
much he hates the
phrase do more with less. He's like no it's about doing less with less like we
have fewer people
but let's do fewer things but do them really really well and I think that's an
important takeaway.
So I'd love to talk about what those areas of focus are for for you guys right
now. What are the
things that you're making big bets on and that you're kind of focusing your
team on as we enter
the second half of the year. Jean let's start with you. What's top of mind?
Yeah you're gonna never invite me back on a
exception. I'm gonna say one more thing about what you don't do less and less.
The one thing that
if you focus on does let you do more with less is reducing the cost of
coordination.
As our companies have grown like crazy over the past few years the hardest part
I think isn't
like you know figuring out how to go get new customers but it's like figuring
out how to work
with each other when we have like 10 teams now focusing on the same button you
know illustrated
and so like I just got out of a meeting where they're like well yeah we'll tell
follow up meeting
to talk about you know the scoping no no follow up meeting. We have to get it
done right now
because another follow up meeting is three minutes of six people's time like
not gonna happen.
That's from now or like it just delays everything. It's a little late. Yeah so
I'm a little fired up
obviously but so that's one way I think if you're really focusing on like we're
still seeing reducing the cost of coordination you can get a little bit more
out of it.
Where are we focusing on to answer your real question? We're really focused on
where we have
edge. Everybody is gonna be competing. Everybody is so smart right now like
Kyle's coming for my
Google ads like everyone's out there doing their best and so we're really
focused on where we can
where we have edge and we have edge on owned channels and owned content. Email
is gonna go
crazy so we started going starting building Subscribable newsletters where
people raise their hand
and say I want to be this content is so good I want it so we have three Subsc
ribable newsletters
now we'll bring that to five by the end of the year. In product is a great
channel for us. We sell
a lot to it like Kyle was mentioning to our customers we have new products and
new upgrades
and things of that nature. So why can't we advertise that right when they're in
the product right when
they're like trying to get figure out what that compensation number is we can
tell them that they're
or when they long end to the screen to the login screen. So we're focused a ton
on these owned
channels and our own content creating spaces where we can get around to this
cookieless world
by creating long-dinn experiences where people can browse.
That's awesome and I think the thing about owned content as we think about
marketing spend is
doesn't always cost money to work on that. That's a great place for you to
focus your efforts
and then you can think about distribution and I'm curious well I guess with
email you're talking
about distribution but that's one thing I think we struggle with is we could
have all the best
content in the world but we can't expect people to come find it. So anything
beyond email that
you're focused on from a distribution perspective I guess in app as well any
other channels beyond
those two. Yeah owned channels is it for us like we we could only we hold
ourselves really
thoroughly to engagement metrics on all the channels that we do use. This wasn
't always the
case like two years ago like I'm so sorry card customers you probably don't
like five emails a day
for us like no no more. We all are we're all not engagement metrics we don't we
don't do that
anymore so we meet your exactly right we need new channels if we're going to be
able to put out
this new content in product is big for us raise your hand. Our channels are
really big for us and
any Kyle will talk about events but these small curated events do wonders for
us it's like
it's just it's actual value for our customer. The way we focus on channels is
like what's most
valuable for our customers start there and you'll probably get good luck. That
's great so Kyle yes
over to you. You're awesome Doc you're not going to invite me back because I'm
just going to repeat
what changed because it's because it's so funny what's so funny about all of
this I know you both
agree that and I also want to know a qualified safety about honestly because we
're all here to
learn but I it's all going back to the foundational stuff that we grew up at
which is events email
own content research data distribution channels might not change a little bit.
I mean I came from
exact target where we were blasting billions of people but they came back to
email and it's so
interesting to see the cyclical nature of how we you know we were talking about
email dying in 2012
and now we have this resurgence of I'm I'm subscribed I'm paying five people
for their use
right so for me it's its own spaces honestly you know your websites your second
most
important products we're focusing primarily on that right now email newsletter
podcasts like how do
we how do we create great content because I I think distribution is important
but in the world we
live in today if the content is different and really valuable it will grow and
I think you can see
that from a lot of the sub stack newsletters and if the quality of contents
there it will grow right
so that's mainly what we're focusing on but the curated events I am I am in
like the small 20 person
dinners where it's like 70% cost of 30% prospects even though I'm going back to
73 and I should say
it's 20 where it's just good conversations and people you know we're coming
back into this world
where people are hungry for that interaction and we can do the virtual events
and we will because
they're scalable and they they are important to the model but you know we had a
virtual event this
year in May and and we had dinners in different cities up in the virtual event
and they were
very successful because we had 90% of tenants rates and people love talking to
each other and so
it's it's again I'm going to go back to what I said at the very beginning
focused experiences
making because yeah that's the only thing that makes us relevant as marketers
or companies is
a positive experience that everybody else is happy internal employees prospects
customers
we are here to surprise them the light people and the way we do that can be
multiple different
ways but I think the own content on its derriages is the best way to do that
because you have control
and control if you're good at what you do control is necessary.
Absolutely. So I'm gonna shut up because I wanted to know the qualified side.
Yeah I mean well now I won't be invited back because I think about everything
you guys are
saying but we're super focused on the website right I mean it's our narrative
at qualified
if your number one marketing asset how do you make sure that it's the best
visual display of your
brand the best way to tell your story but then more importantly how do you make
sure it's optimized
for conversion so we're constantly tinkering with everything not only redesign
ing but figuring out
the CTA's and the usage and application of our own product to convert more of
those people once
they arrive so I think there is a little bit more buyer hesitancy right now
people are you know
we're seeing a little flatness and inbound so how do we get people when they do
come to come to us
make sure it's just a really frictionless buying experience and we're focused
on content videos
are always big for us we have like our qualified plus hub about four years ago
we were just focused
on puffing up and looking big and content was the way we did that we launched
our podcast that's how
we got our name out there and now how do we make sure we are delivering really
relevant content to
different personas to just be thought leaders in the space so website
efficiency content machine
I think those are the big things then events virtual events have been really
exciting for us
with the launch of this pipeline summit program but we're going to be live at
dreamforce so we're
trying to figure out our in-person footprint and I'm curious Kyle like how do
you get people on
the hook to attend these live events because I think you need a bigger draw
more now than you
use still do you kind of. Yeah it's relevant but it's relevant content like
that that's it they
want people want to people want to communicate with their peers and understand
what the hell
everybody's doing like that like we're all trying to figure it out and it needs
to be a good experience
like I you know if it's a very if it's a high-end dinner or you're catering a
chef
like they really want they don't want to be pitched they just want to sit in a
room and communicate
with their peers on what people are facing and that's how we position and there
's loud
pitch there's no VPS sales there to do a demo I mean our VPS sales won't do
that anyway he loves
the more of that pure base tree. Again it goes back to what we have all
experienced as marketers
which is three relevant content relevance right and high quality. Yep well I
think with a few
minutes left I'd love to hear how are you guys moving your teams forward right
it's been a hard
year we've all had to pull back we all have been grinding how do you guys
inspire your teams
and motivate your teams kind of to carry them through the rest of the year.
Jane would love to start with you. Yeah well I feel like I just have to I feel
so lucky I have
the best team in the world they're just remarkable people and I think with one
of the things that
makes them so remarkable is they care so much about the space we we live in and
the customer
space serve and so that goes a long way like having people that are in it for
what you do and
why you do it goes like a really long way and then you're draws to like just
corral that.
Elizabeth I think we're in heart we were in good times and now we're in hard
times
good times we're going to come back and so who do you want to be when the good
times come back
do you want to be the person who was like wow during bad times that team
stepped up they did
incredible work they're tight they're they I am never seen a team execute like
they did it
if you want to call someone who really knows what to do call that team because
they stepped into
bad teams and they crushed it like we can be that we just have to decide we
just as whatever it
is they wake up every single day and they decide if they're going to do that or
not and I think if
we all collectively decide and we hold ourselves accountable to that and we
support each other in
that we rally behind each other because there's going to be a time when someone
gets tired someone
doesn't know what to do they need your help if we can rally together to do that
and we'll be in
great shape and I feel like they're a little bit of this pejorative like oh
well this generation
hasn't done this before like we've done it like done like oh let's show them
you know like everybody
had our first downturn and I feel like there's a real opportunity for us to do
it differently and
to and to show up yeah I think the team is remarkable if they do it on their
own but I do think this
is a real opportunity everybody who's stepping into this this is a real
opportunity this is like the
show show show everybody which we made as moment that's awesome and if you and
if you enjoy the
team that you work with and you then that's the best thing you can possibly
find you should not
try to jump back and forth the companies try to figure out what to do if you
loved what you work
with and you love the customers that you serve because this time friend that we
're in is going to
be career defying for a lot of people and if you found a company that you love
working with you're
going to go through ups and downs and if you can if you can survive that it's
going to benefit you
and I mentioned that at the beginning of when we started talking you know when
the world is
ending for a lot of people it's beginning for a select few and you should make
the decision to
be that select you and work through it because you're only going to make it if
you work with a team
you really love and I'm I mean like Jane I'm lucky that I found I found one
nine months ago that's
that's similar to that where I love everybody I work with I love to we serve
the market that we're
in is growing and defining itself at this time and you know you can't three
years from now you're
going to look back and say I'm glad that I stuck through that because I learned
a lot and now I
can make any decision I want when it comes or five years or however long we
decide this to it
it's career to find it for a lot of people. That's awesome I think we're all
going to look back on
this like you said Jane and say that was hard but we stepped up we rose to the
occasion
and we linked our own life like I know remember remember COVID number one oh
man we'd all made it
out I wouldn't say it's career to find it though we made a different challenge
but yes it's a
different job yeah well I think Kyle and Jane this was fantastic I said at the
beginning but we're
all looking to our peers right now because the old playbooks are not guaranteed
I actually think
everything happening right now has just leveled out the playing field I think
we're all kind of in
this for the first time of our careers or maybe it's the second time but we're
all trying to figure
out what works right now so excited to hear how you guys are thinking about
your investments
what you're doubling down on content-owned channels events being big things the
importance
of pipeline quality in addition to quantity we didn't even get to all the hot
topics we had listed
we had generative AI on here but that's gonna be our next so that'll be our
next segment here at
pipeline summit but what a what a joy to talk with you guys and thank you guys
for joining us today
thank you for having us and thank you for letting us be a customer of course
thank you
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