CMO Roundtable: The Pipeline Problem

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All right, welcome everybody to our CMO round table focused on the pipeline

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problem

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My name is Matt Heinz. I'm the founder president of Heinz Marketing very

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excited to be here today to moderate this amazing panel

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And today we're going to talk about the pipeline problem and specifically the

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challenges that CMO's face when it comes to pipeline generation in

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2024 you think about all the different things that are roadblocks and

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challenges for us today

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We've got changing markets reduced budgets headcount changes who owns the BDRs

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What is AI doing so many different variables and challenges?

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And we've got an amazing panel here to walk us through so I got a bunch of

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questions

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But I first want to make sure we introduce our panel today. We're very excited

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to have

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Jim Sinai is the CMO of vanilla here Jim. Thanks joining us. Happy beer

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We've got more of Rivera CMO of qualified more a thank you for this overall of

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and thank you for doing this event as well

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Thank you, Matt

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Last but not least Oana

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Monalake, how did I do on that name first of all?

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Close enough things now, right?

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So all right you're Oana from now on she is the founder and CEO of

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SQL.io so thank you so much all of you for being here today and

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Jim I think we're gonna start with you

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I'm not gonna call you the elder statesman of this of this panel

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but you already served a very distinguished career as a marketing leader and I

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'm sure the idea of

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Pipeline for marketing has evolved quite a bit in your time in marketing

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overall

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Specifically your time as a marketing leader talk about where it's got where it

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's come from where it is today

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And what are some of the key elements of the change that you've seen that make?

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Pipeline relevant and vital for as a marketing

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Thanks, Matt. I mean

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Jesus as far as I go back my days of marketing the number one metric that we

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always looked at was had was and has been pipeline

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I you know, I grew up in enterprise SaaS and

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all the other measures just

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Were secondary and I think a lot of that is because at the leadership level

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The only thing that matters is are you hitting your numbers and only way to

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know if you have a shot at hitting your numbers is by looking at

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Pipeline and I don't know where I heard this but I love it pipeline is oxygen

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and if you don't have oxygen in the room

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You can't breathe you can't do what you need to do and so

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the

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you know the discipline of pipeline management is really something that I saw

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as a

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a place where marketers can be more strategic and

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Show up with their revenue counterparts in a way that feels more

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in a board level to be frank and

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Candidly it's what we're all playing for we're playing for the for the growth

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and for the win

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And so if you can't speak the language of pipe open pipeline pipe Jen

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Net pipeline pipes velocity all those kind of metrics then you're you're sort

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of left on the outside

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And that's where I feel like we're marketers especially marketing leaders

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Get boxed out of conversations because they don't know how to talk about the

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overall mechanics of creating revenue

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You're really talking about sort of speaking the language of the business and

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the language of sort of go to market

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Not just a language of marketing and not just using our acronyms, but really

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speaking

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I've heard some people say like if my language and my acronyms can match what

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the CFO already uses and understands

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I'm in a much better spot to be perceived as someone who understands and is

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focused on the business

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Yeah, more I want to ask you, you know relative to running this program in the

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conversations you're having

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I mean you're seeing and hearing from a lot of people in different marketing

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functions

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What bubbles up in your head around the biggest?

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Halinges marketers are facing right now in terms of pipeline generation

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Yeah, I mean we've talked to hundreds of marketers over the last few years of

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this program

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And it's a hard time to be a CMO. I think that everybody's saying the same

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thing

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Budgets are smaller teams are smaller

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Targets are higher and how do I efficiently hit my pipeline targets?

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I think everybody's feeling that I feel like there's this hope that things are

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starting to get a little softer things are starting to get a

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Little bit better. We're kind of emerging from what was a pretty hard year and

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a half or two years

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So I think that's the pain everybody's feeling

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Everybody kind of is has emerged from that and is thinking about how do I spend

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efficiently and make sure that I'm being efficient with my investments

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There's been this theme of like I think a gut reaction 18 months ago is to turn

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off a lot of your brand investments and turn off a lot of things

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You couldn't quantify or measure, but that hurts you long-term. So I think

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everybody's trying to figure out the right mix of marketing investments and

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kind of the brand verse demand

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And then another major theme is just focusing on pipeline quality

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Like you can give all the all the first meetings in the world to your sales

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team

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But if they're not materializing if they're not maturing through the through

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the sales cycle

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Then what's the point? So I think how do you hit your targets?

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How do you spend efficiently and smartly and how do you generate that quality

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pipeline to keep your sales team happy?

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I think it's been a trying time for sales and marketing teams

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The tension has probably been a little bit higher just to make sure that

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everybody's satisfied

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But those are the themes in every CMO panel we have every pipeline summit

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discussion we have and I think everybody is kind of looking to each other to

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try and

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Navigate all of those topics. I mean if these are trying times for marketing

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leaders

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And for sales and marketing teams, Oanna founder CEO

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Like you have everything on your shoulders, right?

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And so like you know as as the leader of a business through times like this

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Um, I heard someone that recently described that as chewing glass and as a

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founder myself. I'm like that's pretty damn close

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Um, you know, thanks about the marketing role as part of pipeline generation.

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What's worked for you with sequel and what do you see?

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Marketing's role there relative to all the other groups of the organization

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that have their own role in jelly generating pipeline and rep

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Yeah, I think that in my case, um, I'm I'm the founder and CEO, but at heart. I

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'm also a marketer

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I've been a marketer for 15 years before I started the company

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So I'm somehow uniquely positioned to understand the role of marketing versus

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you know kind of cutting from it

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We actually invested in it, but we we built a different type of investment in

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marketing

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It had to be measurable and still kind of still keep it innovative and exper

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iential

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Um, a big thing for me was obviously when 2023 hit with all the economic

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downturn and all the uncertainties

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I actually um went to my team and I made all the all the um, kind of

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You know impact and results and goals that I usually present to the board

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I made it public my entire company every single person in my company should

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know what we're presenting to the board where we're at

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And it was incredible because every single person in the company has taken

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seriously the investments that we're making and we started working together

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towards a common goal

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Now everybody in the organizations common goal is revenue. Everybody's tied to

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revenue

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Including engineering which is counterintuitive, but we should be building

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features and we should be building product

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That impacts our customers lives that brings more value has brings more revenue

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or makes our customers even more successful

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And the way I structured the sales and marketing team

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I've

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come from a background of marketing and sales being inside out and it was not

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the right way to work

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And now I don't have a sales or a marketing or product marketing team

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I have a go-to market team

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And then out of the go-to market team or main goal is revenue and then there's

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different leaders of projects or initiatives that have

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Subgoals that ultimately working together

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We're reaching our common goal going to the top and that's proven for us to

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work so much better instead of having the specific labels of marketing should

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bring top of funnel

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But marketing should also influence pipeline should also build you know kind of

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give insight into product

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So the transparency bringing you know the board's goals into the team

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And also pointing the entire organization towards common goal with their

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individual

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Kind of success metrics have have been really good for us

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I mean to have someone who understands and has empathy for the marketing role

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to be able to sort of organize that

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I mean I saw we're already see more and some sort of nodding their heads

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thinking about sort of we both work for marketing CEOs

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Yeah, which I think which I think makes our jobs incidentally better because we

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speak the same language

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You know when we when we come to them and say hey, I have an idea that I think

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is going to unlock growth

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They they they listen in and they understand how marketing can be that lover or

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not. They're not pushing back

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Yeah, I think it's unique and it's special and Jim I think back to you

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You know the adjustments you've had to make along the way, especially you know

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Mora kind of talked about just how hard it's been to sell and to market in the

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last year and a half or so and it's it's never easy

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There's always something it's trying to like you know sort of you know

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He's sort of neuter your ability to drive revenue

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But like what what are things that have worked for you and your team in the

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last of six

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12 plus months to make adjustments to be more efficient at driving more

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predictable pipeline in your organization

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Yeah, so I think you know vanilla is a

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Smaller growing organization. It's one of the smaller teams I've led

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But that also has lent a lot of nimbleness to our our sort of our ability to

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react

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We made a decision a very conscious decision to lean into a bunch of brands

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last year

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Uh, and the reason being is that we knew that

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If we wanted people showing up to talk to us

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We wanted them sort of pre-qualified by what our brand stood for and what we

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could do for them

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And so we spent a lot of time making sure our messaging articulated the right

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Problems to write people all the way down to the to the google ads so we weren

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't bringing in inefficient

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inefficient leads into the system

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And you know being trying to like make sure even to the end where our ads were

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explicitly calling out what we did and did not do

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Uh in google and so a lot of that I think helps

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so that the stuff that we do bring in has a higher likelihood of

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Of matriculating into pipeline and ultimately revenue so brands been a huge

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Differentiator and then the other thing nested in there is really making sure

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there's a tight coupling with the bdr's

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And I think that for anyone that works in a sales led

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Uh software business the the bdr army is sort of you have to think of them as

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part of the marketing

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Team and you even if they're not and you have to enroll them in understanding

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the marketing strategy

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Because then they understand how to prioritize what to do and and also how to

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help you understand what messages and what what things are working and not work

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Jim you brought up there towards the end sort of the bdr army and you know,

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yeah, you guys work for sales

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Sometimes works for marketing and you know just back to what you but you were

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sharing what a lot

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I was sharing around this sort of common go-to-market team

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It almost doesn't matter

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Um as if you have sort of continuity around the jobs to be done

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Right and if you have some common understanding of like who needs to do what

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and being in this as

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Have like a team sport more I'd be curious to hear your perspective at all of i

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'd how do you think about that team sport?

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How do you think about marketing's role in conjunction with the broader efforts

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across the organization

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They collectively through you know a body of work or drive

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Yeah, I mean the way it works at qualified is we basically have our marketing

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organization and our sales organization

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But I love your idea of like a full fully aligned go-to-market motion

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We try and achieve that as much as we can even though we kind of have different

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um dotted lines in the org structure

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Our bdr team sits under our revenue team so under our sales organization

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But I see them as an extension of our marketing team our entire sdr bdr team

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and bound and outbound team

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Um, I think one thing that's been really important for us is working towards

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one target when we were first kind of growing up as an organization

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We had too many targets floating around we had to like we had our inbound

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targets and our outbound targets and it simply wasn't working

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We were finding that tension of arguing for who's sourced certain pipeline

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And so we pivoted to do one target and we're really focused on a stage two

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Which to us represents like quality pipeline target across the entire

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organization

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Um, one thing that we also do is we do a pipeline council every single friday

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and the marketing leaders the sales leaders

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And the sdr and bdr's are all there and during that meeting. It's every friday

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at noon rain or shine

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We look over status. How are we progressing? You know quarter to date months to

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date?

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Um

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We look at what's working. We look at what's not working if we're trending

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behind what are our gap plans

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We celebrate the wins so we celebrate like, you know, this sdr had a great play

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this week or this

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Um bdr had a great play this week and so although we're technically separate

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kind of teams the pipeline council

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And um in working towards that one target those have been critical to us

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because you you need both right and especially in this world

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Of account-based marketing it all works together. Hopefully somebody sees an

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advertisement and comes to an event and then opens an outbound email

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And then comes to the website and then converts and like if those two if those

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two teams aren't working together

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Everything breaks. Um, so I think you have to have kind of those functions in

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place to connect the teams

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I'm gonna want to come back to you more if we have time to talk a little about

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sort of change management and sort of

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Culture management is part of that because I think it's one thing

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To have to have a vision for it. It's another thing to have a playbook

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But then to get people to buy into it and really sort of lean into that

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collective mentality

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That's all another thing and is not trivial

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Um, oh and I did want to ask you first the question I feel like it's it's it's

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actually safe to say we're both at the bleeding edge

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And at the very early stages of ai adoption into our go-to-market motions

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It's moving so quickly and there's such a wide disparity

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Of how different companies are incorporating and leveraging would love to hear

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how you are thinking about ai and sort of other

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Advanced technologies and opportunities as part of your pipeline development

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process

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um at sea

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Yeah, ai has been so fascinating and the way I tell my team is that ai will not

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replace anyone in the team

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But if you're but you will replace people who are not using ai

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Because it it's you know, sometimes someone would come to me like, oh, we've

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done all of this like did you use ai?

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And they would feel a little bit scared to say yes

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So that they don't feel like they cheated but actually celebrate the use of ai

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that means you're working smarter

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You're making the most of the technologies and to have a bit of a continuation

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from what mora said is

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Right now buyers are so much more sophisticated, right? They do so much more

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research because shim so much more content

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That's why so hard to put you know a sale or an SQL or an mql in the hands of

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marketing or sales or sdr

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Because chances are that every single person in that go-to-market team has

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touched the you know

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The prospect before they even booked a call with sales

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And we're looking at the entire journey and we're thinking how can we use ai

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from a marketing perspective to either automate or to enhance

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Automation comes where there's a pititive motion

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So are we doing something more than two times three times that can we use ai

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for that?

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For example when customers are asking questions about, you know, things that

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are in our help center articles

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Like can we have a chat on our website that answers those questions so much

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faster

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So it gives them content so much faster. So that's kind of a repeated motion

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where we've

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Put ai to it and it was it was amazing

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And then obviously we'll we'll top up with things where we feel like we can

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kind of get involved in it

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The second thing is elevation

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The one thing that I will never replace

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Like humans with ai is original thought and original content

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One thing that I don't like my team

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See them do is like oh give me a blog post about the importance of ai in the

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world

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I think that original content is so important so that what we do at sequel we

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build

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Original content we have something called again changers where we break experts

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and talk about

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incredible topics and ideas and we use ai to repurpose original content and

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Content into different forms like short video long like long written articles

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short blog both

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um, you know all all kinds of other things so the marketing ai still getting

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elevated and we give more

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Content to you know to our customers and prospects

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Um, but we keep that originality within the team

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Can can I can I just build on this ai story because I think there's there's

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another thread here

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That's really important for pipeline, which is

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Ai I think will make the sdr the abdr jobs a lot easier at least i'm hoping so

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I'm betting on it

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But I think from the content teams they're looking at this and saying how how

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am I going to stand out in a sea of

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Content that's going to get flooded onto the web

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Right and this goes back to

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Uh one investments in brand making sure you have a brand that's differentiated

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and stands or something

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But this is also another opportunity for your bdr is to be more human and to

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really lean into places where bdrs can be human

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So how are you getting them to show up on linked in more?

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How are you getting bdrs to think about creating more video self created video,

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etc

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And I think that um

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You know, it's a scary time because it's going to change a lot of workflows

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But it's also like a time where marketers are sort of more more important than

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ever

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Because it'll be clear the companies that have invested in great marketing

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Won't ever look like they're using ai

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Yeah, I mean, here's what I know guys. I mean like ai is going to make in more

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content faster easy or cheaper

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None of those solve the problems we have in marketing they may make it worse

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Right like your your whether you are the buyer or the you think about your

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buyer

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You they have the same amount of minutes if not fewer in their days to get

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things done and look at tell robot

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Silver robots which might be in our future

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Um, I think providing that humanity really separates out the the great messages

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Uh from others. I know we got just a few minutes left times going by so fast.

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This is so thank you all so much for your insight so far

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Uh more. I did want to get back to you and ask that question around culture

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chain

18:44

Oh, yeah

18:45

Managing the culture

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Across a team that maybe you know historically look let's not pretend that

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there's baggage and scar tissue that didn't exist

18:53

Right from teams fighting for you know for credit over time

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How do you address that but get through it and create a real team mentality

19:01

that we win together?

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Uh moving forward. Yeah, I mean we're we're a little bit of a smaller company

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Like compared to the sales forces or the giants out there

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So I would say changing

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Target's changing kind of how we operate is we can be a little bit more nimble

19:16

like jim said that if you're at a giant giant

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Company or change manager. I've worked at really big companies. It's really

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really hard

19:22

Um, I think the biggest thing is and one thing that our ceo challenges me with

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all the time is

19:28

What would we do if we started the company today?

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Because it's easy sometimes to say we're going to confuse people or how do we

19:35

not scare folks if we're changing too quickly

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And he always challenges me to say

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Start fresh think big if we started the company today. What is the process? We

19:45

would roll out

19:45

We have to adapt or else we'll get left behind

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So I think as a leader you have to have that mentality that changes

19:52

Okay

19:53

And then you have to be willing to bring people along for the ride

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So it's going to take some time for people to kind of acclimate

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Um, we also always say like by the time you're sick of saying it

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People are just getting used to hearing it. So you have to always over

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communicate and internal communications

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Is just as important as external communications when you're running a business

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So constantly communicating and then I think celebrating the folks who are

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adapting and who are changing and who are seeing success with that

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So it is I mentioned our pipeline council earlier. We do these things called

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plays of the week

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And we're like, you know, look at fey she had this awesome interaction. She

20:30

took this new approach

20:31

She generated s2 pipeline. Oh my gosh. It just closed last week or whatever

20:35

So celebrating the the changemakers the folks that are out there doing things

20:40

differently so that their peers want to be like them

20:43

I think that's important, but you always have to be

20:46

I think I didn't anticipate as a marketing leader how much of my attention

20:49

would go into internal communication and not so really

20:52

the team, but it's perfect

20:54

And I was to just add it that I was fine when things aren't going well. It's

20:58

because we haven't communicated internally

21:00

Well, like it's not that we're not doing the marketing. Well, it's we're not

21:04

marketing the marketing well

21:05

And harnessing the power

21:08

Oh, sorry and harnessing the power of the team as well

21:11

It feels like you can create such a big impact into whatever marketing

21:14

initiative that you're that you're running

21:16

Mm-hmm

21:18

Somewhat real to that when I'm a follow-up question for you as sort of like a

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marketer

21:22

But is the is the founder on the on the on the call today?

21:24

um

21:26

Not everywhere the organization thinks they know how to run engineering not

21:29

very ready

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Where like knows that out of they knows how to run a balance sheet and finance

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But everyone the organization thinks they know more and when things are tight

21:36

when things are tough

21:37

Lots of new ideas bubble up which patons is fantastic like that's part of the

21:43

team's spiritment

21:44

But it could be frustrating right for a marketing team that's like we are doing

21:47

our best here

21:48

And we don't need like the you know the the rest of the chickens to contribute

21:52

and think they know our business

21:53

How do you as a founder encourage?

21:55

Ideas innovation creativity across the board yet you your marketing team and

22:01

your marketing leaders clarity

22:03

And the encouragement to do what they know how to do back

22:06

Yes, you are very much spot on on that

22:11

It's a very interesting way to encourage people to still share ideas one of

22:16

One of our greatest marketing ideas came from an engineer who thought it is

22:21

like wouldn't it be great to do this?

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And we're like, yeah, that'd be great

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So everybody can have a great idea even though you're not a marketer

22:27

So we want to foster that culture of sharing interesting ideas

22:31

Some people are seeing it with fresh eyes because we live in it and you know

22:34

It's a little bit harder to see things that are outside of the box

22:38

Yet you don't want the marketing team to be running and building a personal

22:41

idea. There is out there

22:42

Um, we're also similar to what morn Jim were mentioning. We're also a

22:47

Company small enough to be able to move really really fast. So what we do we

22:52

have monthly

22:53

Gold setting obviously we know for the year for the quarter, but we have

22:56

monthly gold setting

22:57

Well, we're also deciding on initiatives that we're focusing on either new

23:01

initiatives or obviously continuing the ones that are strategies

23:04

And we have this idea of experimentation culture

23:07

But nothing is a strategy. So basically a successful experiment becomes a

23:12

strategy

23:12

Nothing is a strategy from the beginning. Even if you're saying i'm gonna be

23:16

running like a webinar strategy or not

23:18

You're gonna be running it an experiment if you've never done it before and

23:21

have certain results from it

23:22

So what we do as a marketing team we sit together and we see what strategies

23:26

are working the best

23:27

We double down on those indeed our great investment

23:30

And we map them out to to revenue and impact on the bestness and then we're

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looking at experiments

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What experiments can we be running this month and then we literally take ideas

23:39

from everyone in the team

23:40

We look at all of those ideas and then we have a framework that we that we

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built every experiment on there is a budget

23:47

There's you know kind of success criteria impact on the bestness and we think

23:51

the one that have the highest impact

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And the way we say it is that

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An experiment cannot fail the only way it fails if you don't know if it worked

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or it did it

24:00

so um this way we

24:03

Nurtured that sharing of ideas from the rest of the team

24:07

But really led it up to the marketing leaders to decide what our strategies and

24:13

what are certain experiments that we want to be running

24:15

Because at the same time while we're cutting a lot of you know budget

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Generally as you know as as a tech industry

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We have to keep innovating we have to invest in new interesting ideas

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Otherwise, we're all going to be doing the same old same old they were not

24:29

going to be growing so

24:30

Keeping that balance um it's been working pretty well for for us in the past

24:35

year

24:35

Yep, we have just a minute left. Jim. I have a final question for you. It's

24:40

super unfair to ask this with a minute

24:41

Brand versus demand. How do you think about the right balance of that moving

24:46

forward?

24:46

I think we've over rotated maybe do a little more of demand in tighter times

24:50

But what's your strategy? What's your recommended way to balance brand the

24:54

demand movie?

24:54

Oh in 30 seconds. Yeah

24:57

Yeah, no, but the short answer is think about them together and holistically

25:01

and honestly like

25:03

If I were to try and go into my linked in spend and say well this this dollar

25:09

is demand dollar and this dollar is demand dollar

25:11

I don't think I could do it

25:13

So I just look at it together as like I need to pay money to create awareness

25:18

and demand together and the the total spend

25:21

Is?

25:23

Translates into both brand awareness traffic growth to the website follower

25:26

growth on linked

25:27

in but also to

25:29

To the bottom line and just trying to pay attention to the what the total spend

25:34

is to

25:35

To pipeline so we don't try and get too granular because otherwise we're just

25:40

going down a rabbit hole

25:41

Oh, you certainly are you absolutely are

25:43

I mean one of those things I tell CFOs all the times like listen

25:45

If you want to spend a lot less on demand to three two years from now spend a

25:49

lot more on brand today

25:50

Because that is what that balance is going to give you a healthier business

25:53

more equity

25:54

More predictable pipeline is going to solve it's going to help make those

25:58

pipeline challenge a little easier with more of that

26:00

investment

26:01

Well, guys, but even spent but even spend I mean all this leave over the even

26:04

spend you think you're spending on demand

26:05

It ends up as brand so like how do you even do that? Yeah, you're right. You're

26:09

right

26:09

Uh, we can spend a whole nother 25 minutes just on this question. We didn't

26:13

even get to

26:14

Uh my concerns about your uh your fantasy baseball team for the year, but we'll

26:18

we'll do that in another time

26:20

Um guys have an amazing mora jim. Ohana. Thank you so much for being part of

26:24

this panel for being open honest candid with your answers

26:26

Uh, thank you to qualified again for this amazing event

26:29

Uh, I think we saw all the few pipeline problems city guys. Uh, so thanks hope

26:33

jib and um, we'll see you all next time

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Some people want to eat a bite That's all I, that's what's going on here

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They eat a bite, they eat a bite That's what's going on here

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And I'm at the end of this video, I'm really very excited, when she makes a

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