Digital Demand Gen Success in a Sales-Driven Organization
Michelle Huff shares how an organization fundamentally driven by enterprise sales, rather than product growth, is achieving sustained digital demand gen success.
[MUSIC]
Welcome to Demand Gen Visionaries.
I'm Ian Faizan, CEO of Castbean Studios,
and today I'm joined by special guest, Michelle.
How are you?
Very good.
Thanks for having me.
Excited to chat today, excited to talk about user testing,
and all the cool stuff that you all are doing.
And of course, your background, how
did you get into marketing in the first place?
It's funny.
It was in the late '90s, and it was right
when software was starting.
So being in grown up in Seattle, I
think I was going between something coffee-related or tech
related and must have flipped a coin and went the tech route,
which I think was great, and landed into a role at first
was web marketing.
And it was at a really small startup
that was going through an acquisition,
ended up playing a lot of different marketing roles,
and really grew up over time through the world
of product marketing, and then eventually product management,
and then into running the entire marketing
organization.
And flash forward to today, tell us
what it means to be CMO of user testing.
I love it.
So it's interesting.
We do bootcamp for employees several times a month,
and for onboarding people.
And I usually like to explain a little bit about marketing,
because I think every time you go to a different company,
I always feel like marketing set up a little different.
How they behave is a little bit different.
And I think I've always thought of marketing
as a function of scale.
And if you think of really small startups,
especially if it's more of an enterprise sales,
enterprise led selling company, these normally,
some people selling it to people building the service,
and everyone else's right.
We're all overhead.
And I feel like as you start growing,
sensing product market fit, it's scaling,
and it's really where you start taking
all these functions and marketing.
And I see them in a few different areas.
One of them is being the voice of the company,
and being the voice of the CEO.
And how do you make sure as you're evangelizing
what you're doing and telling the store of user testing?
For example, how do we get that brand story out there
for trying to bring in new employees,
but also out to the market for customers
and prospective customers?
And then I think the other part is really this arm
that's linked arm and arm with the sales team,
where it's all about building pipeline.
How do we make sure we're building demand,
building pipeline, driving revenue,
and especially in a SaaS world,
it's the bookings and making sure we're continuing
to get new logos and growing.
And then I think the third area is really especially in SaaS,
is making sure that we're driving customer loyalty
and adoption and partnering across the organization
to really have that more end-to-end customer experience.
And so marketing is really my mind,
trying to like help scale these functions and organizations,
and then partnering with the product and services side
of the organization of how do we bring solutions to market?
How do we think about our total addressable market,
which ones we wanna go after and win,
and then how we really bring that to market,
enable the rest of the teams,
but also really educate the rest of the market as well.
- Let's get into our first segment, the Trust Tree.
This is where you go and feel honest and trusted
and share those deepest, darkest demand-gid marketing secrets.
- Nice. - Nice.
- Tell us a little bit about user testing.
What does the company do?
- I will say there's three aha moments with user testing.
And the first one is,
how often you're trying to really understand
what it's like to be a customer,
like you're trying to see if something resonates
as a marketer, you're trying to understand what the journey's
like, you're all supposed to really do things
that resonate and make sense for customers, for prospects.
And normally we look at a lot of data.
And what user testing really does,
it allows you to really understand the perspective
from that prospect or customer's perspective.
We really provide a whole solution
that connects with millions of people.
And you can really say,
"Hey, I'm trying to find actually these sets of audiences."
And then you can quickly,
usually within a few hours, connect with them,
allow them to say what kind of questions do you want?
You want to share a certain part of the experience.
So I want you to go to the website
and see if you can actually find the pricing and packaging.
And you literally get to watch
while they're going through that experience,
thinking their thoughts out loud,
telling you what's like, what sucks about it,
everything, you can really start seeing the needs
and understanding those different customers.
And we've had a lot of different solutions around that.
But essentially, the first is,
most people at that aha moment,
is you're trying to figure out,
"What is it?"
And then you start seeing these videos
and the highlights, reels, and suddenly like,
oh, like literally they're going through the experience,
telling you their thoughts,
you can put messaging in front of them
and have them see if it resonates.
And then usually the second aha is when you realize how fast,
it's usually over 80% of everything we do
comes back within a few hours.
And suddenly you have campaigns you're trying to get out,
you're trying to actually run an A/B test
and the fact that you can really,
instead of just asking a coworker,
or asking your spouse, what do you think?
You can actually ask a legitimate user customer prospect
that really changes it a lot of things.
And then really the third is realizing,
it doesn't just have to be your products or your experiences.
You can really understand what it's like
for people using a competitor's experience
or anything that's out there in the wild,
which is pretty phenomenal.
- And who are your customers?
- So our kind of core audiences at first
were user experience designers and researchers.
But as we've grown and scaled,
people have really realized
it doesn't just have to be about prototypes
and doesn't just have to be about design.
The idea of really talking to customers
and getting access can be used across so many other functions.
And so it's really people from a lot of product management teams,
a lot of marketers, customer experience.
We've even seen some on the HR side for employee experience
and things like e-commerce.
So a variety of different functions across the company.
- And what size company, what industries all that?
- Yeah, so it's fun on the marketing side
because we actually scale to the really SMB.
So Nathan company is less than 10
or sometimes customers have user testing
all the way up through the large enterprises
where we'll have people rolling it out
across a multi-million dollar kind of implementations.
And it's fun thinking about demand gen across all of this.
- Yeah, no kidding.
What do those buying committees look like?
As you said, obviously UX is always gonna be
a key persona, but what else?
- So in startup land,
oftentimes what we'll see is if you think about that phase,
you're trying to find product market fit,
but yet you're really small and no one,
you don't have access to a lot of people
and they want to talk to you.
You're trying to get people to give you feedback
and see if what you're building fits market need.
And so sometimes it's the CEO of the small companies.
Sometimes it's the heads of product
or heads of marketing at those companies, right?
And that it could be a decision maker of one.
And then as we go up market,
we see lots of teams and their dynamics changing
where sometimes it's a buying committee.
So a lot of the digital teams on the marketing side,
something the web teams, how you think of them
are digital marketers.
Those kind of buying teams happen on that side.
- Yeah, so how do you structure your marketing work?
Especially when you're going after that many different
personas and size companies and industry verticals
and all that?
- We've organized through sales plays
and we rolled out really just a core set
of sales plays and personas where what's interesting too
is even when I mentioned all those personas companies
are so different too on how they're organized.
Usually the role of a CFO is pretty consistent
and the accounts payable is pretty consistent.
And they are consistent across industries,
especially in the world of definitely marketing, right?
All the titles are very different.
Everything in products can be that way in design
and how they're organized.
We've really honed in in some sense around people
who are owning some form of research.
And then there's the other teams
where it's about conversion rate optimization.
And then other teams where it's about
if you're really designing or building products
or experiences.
And so we group the buyers 'cause you might roll up
or have different titles that way.
So it's more focused around needs versus always titles
and that we share with the field like it's typical titles
that you'll come across.
And then we have different plays.
So there's specific campaigns that we can run based on those.
Give us a glimpse into your marketing strategy.
How do you think about building a strategy?
- A lot of the marketing strategy needs to line
to overall business model and corporate strategy.
So as a company, we've really aligned
around being enterprise sales led organization.
And so while we do have SMB as mentioned,
even selling to one to 10,
our style of marketing is not product led growth.
It's much more of this enterprise sales led motion.
And then we have a big part of our strategy,
so is digital.
We do tend to get a lot of inbound leads.
And so a lot of the strategy for supplying our SMB team
tends to be mostly making sure that we have a scaled SMB team
mostly on inbound.
And then as we go higher up in the sales segments,
then we have different marketing strategies
that align to those segments.
And so definitely the higher up we go within the market,
we have much more high touch events,
personalized events, more kind of ABM kind of campaigns.
And then we operate globally.
So we have different flavors of that
when we go into AMIA as well as Asia Pacific.
But we're trying to really this year also try
to have a consistent campaign that we're rolling out
to cross all those segments around
how user testing can really help organizations mitigate risk,
get and avoid the cost to rework.
And so we're really trying to have that message
that can go across a lot of the different audiences.
- How does demand fit into that?
- You touched on it a little bit there,
but any specific strategies for demand?
- We actually have an SDR and a BDR team.
And so the way that we break them down
is we have a BDR organization
that's specifically doing outbound.
And then the SDR organization helps qualify all the inbound.
And so when our demand gen programs,
it's all about how do we,
how are we driving traffic to the site,
but how do we drive different events and campaigns
that we're continuing to generate leads?
And then the SDR team,
so one that really partner with
to help qualify and turn those into meetings booked.
And then we also have a set of programs
that are really supporting the BDR organization
with ABM to help them think about which accounts
we wanna prioritize,
especially as when we start going out
to the really large accounts.
Some of our largest accounts have dedicated teams.
And so then we do one-to-one programs
where we even have sites that are set up
specifically just for that organization.
We're even having an event here at the end of February
that almost like a customer user group conference webinar,
all these types of things,
but it's really just for all the users
within that company alone.
And so there's really specific one-to-one
demand gen strategies there.
- All right, let's get to our next segment, the playbook.
So we talked about the tactics to help you win.
- You play to win the game.
You don't play to just play it.
- What are your three channels or tactics
that are your uncutable budg atoms?
- One of them I mentioned, the web, our kind of web channel.
Definitely such a huge contributor to pipeline over the years.
So all the things that we're doing around optimizing
that channel is really important to us.
Probably the next one is our paid advertising
is a pretty big channel for us.
And third is really been events.
- Yeah, zooming into a web,
is that anything to do with the website
or how do you look at that differently?
- We made some changes to the organization
'cause I really am the spirit of what the economy is
and kind of going out in the market.
Basically the idea was to really see if we can make the most
of every dollar that we're investing in our campaigns.
And I think when we were growing and scaling really quick,
it was really easy to almost have these isolated
one-off campaigns instead of really trying to coordinate
and have a series of digital touch points,
even that might go along with live touch points.
So some examples might be we started to change things
so that if you're at a trade show at the booth,
we would have an iPad there that allows people
to directly book meetings or directly
we have a digital free test offer
that we can kind of sign people up right there.
And yeah, the website we put,
we crop together actually calling Digital First Demand Center
because I wanted to make sure that all of those things
were really brought together.
And so it was really bringing our demand-gen function
along with content search and SEO
with our digital web experience teams
when they're building all those experiences
that also have the testing and optimization
and targeting within that.
And then marketing ops and then our analytics.
And so, 'cause we've been really leading to build out
all of our reports and data.
It's been a big goal of ours to become much more
data-driven as well and be able to show the ROI
across these different touch points.
And so it's really kind of bringing that together
but thinking, how do we make the most
of each particular touch point and then capture the data
so we can arm our SDR team with more information
than just like Lilly made.
As part of the web piece, like how much optimizing
are you doing on the site?
Tons of personalization and things like that.
We basically installed Adobe Test and Target within there.
We use a lot of testing tools.
We use user testing as a part of it as well.
But basically, we're able to now, for example,
like the drop-down banner, we're able to kind of customize
and personalize that on the different audiences.
We've also been on an initiative of lining
our data warehouse.
We actually segment to really help have a single view,
a unified view of a customer profile.
And then basically, we've been testing all the CTAs,
testing the visualizations, being able to,
we've created almost like a inspired by B2C,
kind of a merchandising area for promos.
We're trying to build digital buying journeys
and there's things around not just the industries
but like what segment you're in,
different kind of solutions.
So you can better understand if there was browsing
certain roles that have more interest in these types of things.
And we've been building many journeys on the website
and optimizing for that.
And so we've had some really good wins.
One that was really fascinating,
it was almost maybe a low hanging fruit
was optimizing our chat experience.
And so there's a lot of work on optimizing.
When that comes up, testing kind of the scripts
and then getting really aligned with the SDR team
that was managing that.
And we ended up, gosh, it was like five times
the amount of revenue booked from that channel
just through those different modifications.
And we just feel like there's still so much more left
to really optimize there.
And so we also have been applying all these practices
to now what we're doing in Marchetta with our emails.
And so we're doing a lot more testing
and just the layouts of the email,
the particular subject lines.
We also just had an interesting campaign with Amia.
It was great to see all the areas that they tested.
We've been working on a lot of messaging
and testing them at trade shows and seeing like,
there was one where it was standing room only,
people were seated on the floor.
So we're like, okay, how do we bring this
to our next kind of campaign?
And we were testing the format,
but also just at the end of the webinar,
asking people if they wanted to have a live consultation,
personalized consultation and people were chatting in.
So we were able to kind of book meetings
just right off the bat of closing out the call.
So we've been trying to think about that whole end-to-end
sequence of the campaign and optimizing around there.
- Seems like you really dig into the details on this stuff.
Like you see, you're not just setting the course
and doing one-on-ones.
- I feel like maybe it's 'cause it's my tech background.
So I started off my career building websites.
The whole product was web content management
and there were portals like I used to have to install
app servers and all that type of stuff.
And then did marketing automation and sales force.
And so maybe it's just I'm like wired to learn
about those things,
but I also just recently had an all hands
and the way I format things is I get other people
in the organization to share learnings
and share what they're learning.
And that one in particular was just shared actually this week
by someone on the Mia team and it was fantastic.
I was like, oh, that's amazing.
And so they shared the results
and she was kind of walking through.
So all those details.
If you dig into every part, there's no way I could know all that.
- Any favorite campaigns that you've ran?
- I feel like that one really stuck 'cause that one,
it was actually this starting with the mitigating risk
and it's been this journey throughout last year.
And so what I loved also about it
wasn't just the campaign optimization,
but how we worked with the sales organization.
So last year, there was a lot of product marketing,
kind of getting aligned with the field around the messaging
and we're having some early testing
with different buyers for onsite meetings.
And then we would send out the recordings to people
so that people could learn like,
oh, how did people respond to that?
And then we were testing things at the different events,
but basically the head of sales,
the head of solutions consulting,
the head of the BDR and SDR organizations,
as well as marketing, we're all super aligned on the message
and what they wanted the next steps to be.
What was great about this one
is really just having that alignment all the way through
and being able to just make sure everyone's committed
to getting everyone trained up.
So even while this was going on,
the head of sales was in a me,
I was having all the reps do like practicing their pitches
and everything along those lines.
So it just it made, I feel like that's,
I think what I love the most about it.
It was, I guess maybe not just the campaign,
but the kind of the whole end-end view of it.
- You talked to your uncuttable budget items,
about your cuttable budget items
or something that maybe you're not going to be investing
as much in next year or something like that.
- There were definitely events that we were looking at
from ROI or certain trade shows
that just didn't have a great return.
So I think it was hard,
I think I'll always just say a certain channel
is an effective, but definitely there's been programs
that we cut back on.
I guess in the spirit, we've done some cuts,
for example, with content syndication,
not 'cause we don't think it's a great channel,
but again to that, the handover.
When we were looking at what's actually converting,
I think we need to, we're trying to change a few things
to make sure that there's different ways
that we're trying to test to see
if we can get those ones to convert just as well,
otherwise it just doesn't feel like
it's worth spending the dollars.
- We hear content syndication pretty often.
And again, I'm biased by my company makes video
and podcast series, but I think it's just a broader trend
of people just build their own now.
And for example, you all have a podcast
that's been going for six seasons,
that's successful, the Human Insight podcast,
if people want to check it out.
And so if you have your own channels
that are doing really well in that way,
it's that effort is sometimes better spent
on building your own stuff.
- We found other ways where we can leverage it to find,
use it as like a touch point within a broader campaign.
But anytime we were just thinking of it
as like a standalone, and looking at its demand shed
and converting, it just, it didn't,
it wasn't working for us and it's not that I don't think
it doesn't work for others,
but I think there's a few things within our process
we need to improve upon.
- That's super fair.
We had someone come on that was like,
"Yeah, it's one of the uncuttable budget items
was content syndication."
And I think that you're exactly right,
that it just depends on what phase you're in
and how you can use things like that,
because much like anything,
it's like we don't want to be over reliant
on spending money to get in front of other people.
And you want to have like,
what can we do in house that can scale and grow?
And what can we do that we just pay for?
And like pulling those levers at different times
is super important, right?
Programs versus people and that kind of ebb and flow.
- When we look at it across the quarters,
cutting back sometimes on that spend
to invest in other things
or trying to make sure you're hitting that
like perfect Goldilocks to spend
to get the most bang for the buck in that particular area.
- Yeah, the two things that I found really interesting
about cutting paid that have come out recently.
So you had the Airbnb case study where they were like,
"Yeah, we're gonna cut all the CPA type stuff
that they're doing and go brand campaigns,"
which obviously totally different type of company
that a BDB tech company.
And then Rand Fishkin did some studies basically
that were just literally paying Google
for stuff that would have come to us anyways.
And so it's interesting to hear those sort of things
that I think we always just said, we're like,
"Well, we have to capture the demand."
It's like we have to be there
and then you dump a bunch of money into stuff that's like,
"What does people look under us anyways?
I don't know."
- Right, I know.
And then I feel like it's so interesting
in marketing where you like the levers all change, right?
Because it's like in some sense,
you don't always have visibility into certain data sets.
And so some of it's all qualitative while you're like,
"Yeah, this feels like a good one,"
or you're just seeing things come in top
and you're like, "I'll never change this."
It's amazing.
And then you start seeing data and you're like,
"Maybe this isn't actually as rosy as I thought."
You kind of like start tweaking some things,
but then simultaneously the market's changing
and your solutions are maturing or your buyers, right?
Like in things that you've not held true aren't,
or it only is like you start getting more data
and you realize actually it's true,
but just for this segment or this audience
and not true for the others.
And so in some sense, that's why I think marketing's fun
'cause it's always changing,
but it can make you wanna figure out too.
- And that's why they call it a marketing mix, right?
It's not like baking a cake, right?
You're not like, if you put this much butter in
and this much sugar in and this much flour
and like that's not how it is,
it's the exact opposite where it's like the amount
of butter changes by day, by week, by month,
the seasonality of the product when people are buying
all that stuff, it's so fluid.
- I totally have to talk to me six months later
and maybe I'll be like, "No, I just totally changed my mind."
But it's almost, that's why I even finally
benchmark's interesting 'cause we always wanna know
how other people are structured, how they spend,
what their rates are, what their conversion rates
and how much pipeline 'cause those are so interesting to see,
but then it's not a recipe book.
Like you can't just be like, "Okay, so if I literally
"just duplicated that exact same mix,
"that exact same structure and just put it here,
"does it all work?"
'Cause there's even like maturity level
or enablement processes on I think the selling side
of the world.
And then also I feel like sometimes the benchmarks
are compared to product-led growth organization.
You're like, "But that's all different
"than the different marketing organization."
- Yeah, the rise of these like solo creators
that are now as powerful, if not more powerful,
then they're like, quote unquote,
industry counterparts of old or like traditional
media companies where you have these like macro influencers
within a small community that's like,
"Oh dang, that person who has 50,000 people
"who follow them on LinkedIn posted about this thing
"or put it in their newsletter or like we had Dave Kellogg
"on this show, like tons of people reference Dave's
"newsletter," stuff like that.
It's a great way to get a little bit more
of a trusted feel if they're the type of person
who is not just gonna let anyone in the door
and say, "Yeah, you can sponsor my newsletter."
- Totally, well it's so fascinating, right?
'Cause you almost feel like there's this interesting world
of like centralization, decentralization, right?
Where they used to be, right?
Just the ones where they had all the audiences
and you were always trying to get in.
And then suddenly I was like, "No, like I can build
"my own audience, I can have my own content,
"my own podcast, my own right."
And then I think ultimately sometimes you're like,
"Oh shoot, that takes a lot of resources.
"That takes a lot, right?"
And then you're thinking, and then you're competing
if everyone else has that voice,
then you throw in the mix the whole chat GPT thing
and then you're like, "Wait, does that change?"
However one thinks about that
and you go back to some centralization again.
- Where you have those, CIO.com,
I could pay to reach their audience
and then you're like,
but I could just build my own version of CIO.com
and the audience is there anyways.
I could just pay to get them in a different way.
But I think the thing that is the most interesting thing
we talk a lot about is like co-creating
with your prospects and customers.
And it's the same idea of having them speak
into your user conference where it's like,
when you can put one put like the thing
that we're making here together.
But I think that the sort of approach
is really interesting in novel and puts one in one
to make three versus like just more older,
like chucking ad dollars at display ad type of a model.
- Totally, right?
'Cause I feel like once that becomes so saturated,
it is the high quality, interesting thought leaders,
right?
And it is always the content that makes the difference.
- And the nuance.
- And the nuance.
- Totally.
Like one of my, again, so I always have my all hands
and people presents.
One of them was one of the gals in content marketing
and she was writing out a white paper
into the spirit of co-creating.
And so one of the things we use your test before
is she's like, she writes an outline
and then actually gets the people she's trying to target
to read it, just the outline, just skim it
and say like, what's interesting?
What would you stand over and just say,
it's so fascinating 'cause you hear people literally talking
about like they translate everything into their own words
and they talk about, oh, no, no, like I wouldn't even read
a section on like that's not phrased, right?
It's really, I feel like makes it so much more powerful
when you are co-creating it with a customer
and then helping to come up with something other than just
like the quick things that you can find on any other site.
- That's the future, right?
It's like if you can go the extra mile for your customer
to figure out what they want to do all that stuff, you'll win.
I'm curious, any cool stuff that marketers are doing
with use your testing?
- And a few different areas,
definitely the whole world of A/B testing.
And I think what I've heard from so many other marketers
where we can be really focused on data.
And I think a lot of the testing sometimes you end up
finally having all testing out all the low hanging fruit
and doing all the things that feel obvious
and then you're stuck in this world where A wins over B
by like 0.2% and you're like,
(squeaking)
and it's almost like you're trying to figure out now
the new hypotheses.
It's like how do I come up with something totally different
to test and so a lot of times use your testing has been
really helpful for kind of sparking new ideas,
helping to see something from a different perspective,
really bringing in a diverse voice when you're like,
oh, I never really thought about doing it that way.
So I think it's become in the more innovative marketing teams
is like triad of a targeting tool, a testing tool,
the user testing to help be a hypothesis
and testing engine in some sense.
And then we've also seen on the other side
where oftentimes the marketing organization ends up
helping to really be a champion of helping the whole
organization better understand their customers.
And so we've seen ones where during weekly meetings,
especially right now,
when everything's changing with the CEO and leadership team
and having them literally watch few little snippets
to help people understand the perspectives of their buyers,
the perspectives of their customers
and pulling them through that way.
So we've seen it in a much more as a tool for the users,
but also one that's much more strategic
in helping align the organization around buyers,
especially if they're trying to go outside
and find new buyers and new users and use cases.
- Let's get to our next segment.
The desktop talk about healthy tension
or events with your board, your sales teams,
your competitor or anyone else.
Have you had a memorable desktop in your career, Michelle?
- How do you define desktop?
- It could be a knockdown drag out.
You could have gave someone a fish hook
and pulled them out of the bar.
It could be whatever you want.
- It's funny.
I've always been a little bit more of disagree
and commit type of person.
- I'm just gonna say disagree and commit.
- I think the more that you can just align on,
what do you like, what's the strategy and the goal?
I feel like sometimes you get into these worlds
where you're arguing about all the tactics
and then if you kind of align on that,
then you can kind of do a disagree and commit sometimes.
Okay, we're gonna do this
and then we're gonna check back in three months
and see if it's still working enough.
We're gonna change it.
Yeah, tend not to have huge blobs
but I don't know, there's always moments along the way.
- Let's get towards it.
These are quick questions and quick answers.
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Shell, are you ready?
- Maybe, I don't know, maybe.
- Number one.
- Yes.
- What is a hidden talent or skill that's not on your resume?
- I'm a good networker.
That's not my resume.
- Oh, that's a good one.
We've never heard that one.
That's a good one.
Do you have a favorite book or podcast or TV show
you've been checking out recently?
- Actually, my favorite book I'm reading is about,
it's, I don't know, I read a lot of parenting books,
but it's about how to drive empathy and children.
So I think that was pretty cool.
- I'll need to check it out.
I'm not reading enough parenting books
because they don't sleep.
So what advice would you give to a first time CMO
who's trying to figure out their marketing strategy?
- I think what's hard is people kind of come in thinking
that if you're the CMO, you're supposed to know everything,
right?
Like you're supposed to be one setting,
everything's setting the vision
and always wanna feel like you don't have the answer.
And the whole point is you own the decision.
Even if that advice, if the idea comes from anywhere,
either your colleagues or your team,
you ultimately own the decision and the result,
but drive this strategy, definitely partner here,
especially if you're just first time coming in.
I think really getting aligned with your heads of sales,
understanding what's working,
what's not, build your strategy around that.
And then you can keep layering in all the things
that you've learned in your past.
And then I feel like building out your team,
you know what your strengths are
and where you come up through from the marketing ranks
and make sure you find some solid people
to plug the holes and help you get better
on some of the other parts of the marketing function.
- Michelle, fantastic.
It has been awesome having you on the show
for listeners, you can go to usertesting.com.
They got stuff for marketers,
so definitely check that out.
We all need more user testing, that's for sure.
And we all want to know more about our customers.
So go check out usertesting.com.
Shall any final thoughts, anything to plug?
- I'd say there's an amazing tech talk
that talks about how getting feedback can be a skill
and I was listening to the other day
and I thought about how,
honestly, I think that's a user testing thing, right?
Suddenly you're hearing people call your baby ugly.
And you have you okay with that.
But I also feel like it has such great message
in a way to think about it from just yourself,
being a leader, running teams.
If you can really think about feedback as a way
to just understand that perspective,
maybe there's a way that there's a grain of truth
in there somewhere that you can either realize
maybe it's a perspective you have to change
or maybe that's actually something that you can change
and try to look at it in a way without getting all emotional.
And it was a, I don't know, I loved it.
I feel like if we all can get better at not just giving
but receiving feedback,
I think we'd all be better at the end of the day.
- I love it.
Great final thoughts.
We'll link up the TED Talk in the show notes here.
Shall we, and I'll get some feedback on this episode
from you after this.
- I'd love feedback from you.
It's great.
- Likewise, thanks again.
Take care.
- All right, bye.
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