Ian Faison & Anthony Kennada 52 min

Championing Owned Media Experiences for Brands


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(upbeat music)

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Anthony, welcome to the Pipeline Summit,

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Pipeline Visionaries Live at the MoMA.

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- It's awesome.

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- San Francisco, we were just chatting

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for a while before this.

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I'm so excited to finally have you on the show

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and get to talk with you live in person.

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- Yes.

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- So many Zoom calls over the years.

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But so excited to chat content, chat audience plus,

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you go to market, how you think about all that stuff.

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And so let's get into it.

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- Let's do it.

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- First, how did you get started in marketing?

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- Oh man, so it was never my intention, to be honest.

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Like I found myself working in tech,

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came up as an SDR at Box back in 2009

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and kind of pivoted to like business development

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and the partnerships team moved my way over

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to product management.

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I don't know how or why someone gave me a shot on product,

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but I actually really enjoyed it.

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Thought I would actually keep pursuing product.

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And then my CEO at GainSight,

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who I'd worked with at LiveOffice called me

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and said I'm doing this thing,

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this company called GainSight

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or would be called GainSight over time.

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Do you wanna do an interview?

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Or do you wanna talk about it?

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And this was one of the leaders that

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I would follow blindly into the dark, right?

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He is like values driven, a cultural kind of leader.

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And so whatever he was going to lead me towards,

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I was gonna say yes.

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And he asked, and I put together this like plan

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of how I'd run products for this company.

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And he said, what do you think about marketing?

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I'm like, I've never done marketing before.

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And so I, you know, wanted the job,

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wanted to work with him.

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So I go on Wikipedia and I'm searching demand-gen

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so I can just sound smart and drop words like MQL

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and kind of know what I'm talking about.

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Thankfully, he gave me the job.

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But, you know, I think what I found, like a couple of things.

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One is the lesson I learned is that sometimes people

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see things in you that you don't see in yourself.

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And he saw a marketer in me.

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I think he says there was like a presentation I gave

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like several years prior that stuck with him

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or something to that end.

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So thankfully, I think I landed somewhere that,

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very unprofessional that I just love.

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You know, so I'm glad he pushed me.

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And so a few stops being, had a marketing being a CMO

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and now you're a CEO, which is the path we always love

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for marketers to make it into the CEO role.

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But you started the company Audience Plus

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and you've had a fascinating sort of buildup

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to launching the company and a lot of, you know,

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early customers, really cool customers.

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Take us back to why did you start Audience Plus?

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Yeah, I think there are a couple of things.

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So I mean, it starts with the origin story, right?

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Like I got dropped into the head of marketing job

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and I didn't have a lot of bias.

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I had a lot, all I had was first principles

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for how we can build, gain sight into a company.

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And so I didn't think about paid search.

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I didn't think about SEO.

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I didn't think about these things that you might be trained

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to as a kind of marketer coming up

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through the different kinds of parts of the org.

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And so I looked to like late night television, Airbnb,

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like what are the consumer media,

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how are consumer marketers doing?

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That's really interesting.

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And that was sort of the thesis

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for gain size marketing approach.

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It was, okay, let's just serve this persona

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with education and entertainment,

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doing like interesting ways.

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We did events just like this one.

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We hosted podcasts, all these types of things,

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which in 2013, when we started was sort of deemed

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as brand or corporate marketing.

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You can't measure it.

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It sits outside the growth equation,

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but you know, we think there's some like benefit to it.

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I found that that was actually,

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like maybe we put a call it thought leadership

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or something in general.

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I found that thought leadership was actually like

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the number one driver for gain size success,

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not just from the lens of brand awareness or whatever,

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but from a pipeline perspective,

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like it actually helped us generate sustainable pipeline,

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people that weren't just coming in

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through a transactional channel,

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but wanted to stay with us.

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So that kind of became part of my playbook.

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And I took it to front and I took it to hop in

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in the CMO kind of role there.

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And it was that hopping that I was trying to build

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sort of the interface digitally

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that is between our brand,

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you know, is the company and our audience,

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which historically is the blog.

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That's kind of where we send traffic to on our website

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to kind of get people to engage with our thought leadership.

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And at each company, I've sort of tried to kind of supercharge

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our blog in a way, like make it about more than just written

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content, add video and live events and podcasts

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and those types of things.

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And I want people to subscribe or opt in or convert

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into our thought leadership.

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And that was kind of like the leading indicator we used

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to measure thought leadership.

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We're like, okay, if they're not subscribing,

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asking for a demo request,

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are they at least subscribing to our content in some way?

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And so I built something internally against site.

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It was kind of ugly, kind of, you know,

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use like Zapier hooks to plug it into Marketo

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to kind of try to make it work.

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At front, I used an expensive agency and it cost a lot.

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And when they hand it to us, we couldn't maintain it.

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'Cause we needed like engineers to basically upload content.

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So at Hopden, this was sort of like under the shadows

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of Salesforce Plus that had just come out

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and HubSpot doing some interesting things.

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And like gosh, there's gotta be by now,

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like a Salesforce Plus as a service,

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something where we can distribute content on our own domain,

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we can build subscriber, an owned audience of subscribers.

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Then we can look at the data and understand

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how is all of this engagement actually driving revenue?

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And there wasn't.

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So it's a long answer to your question,

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but that was sort of the prompt was,

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this needs to exist as trend is happening.

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And there wasn't sort of an underlying platform

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to take the blog into the modern era

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and turn it into more of a,

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we call it own media platform.

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- It's so interesting because I had a very similar journey

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at the exact same time.

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And this was like before Salesforce Plus had launched

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where I had made five of Salesforce podcasts

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and I was starring in three of them,

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starring in quotes,

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hosting them.

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And I was thinking at the exact same time,

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like there's this massive organization

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that has that were at Dreamforce,

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this creates $4 for every $1 that they make

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for the ecosystem, this massive ecosystem,

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all these people.

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And I interviewed probably like a thousand people

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on across their shows over the course of about two years.

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And what struck me so much was every single relationship

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and conversation that I would have with these people,

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they had this affinity and love for Salesforce

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and they had all these unique stories and perspectives

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and the way that they use it

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and the way that they do this stuff

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and this like long form information was so helpful.

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And then at the same time,

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all these conversations led to business for my business.

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And I was like, wait a second.

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It's like, all of this thought leadership stuff,

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this brand stuff is like propelling my business forward

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and also propelling Salesforce's business forward

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and we would go to events and they'd talk about like,

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oh, we saw you at this podcast.

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And it became extremely clear to me too

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that when I would write a blog post

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after I would do a bunch of podcasts

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and video content and events,

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that then that would get way more received

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and they wouldn't reference the blog post

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and say like, hey, I read your post.

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They'd be like, oh, I heard you talking about Blake.

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And so it was like, what was sticking

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was the conversations that we were having

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on podcasts and video series, not writing stuff.

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And then also I would talk to these guests

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and the guests would tell these stories.

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Now remember, specifically one guest who was a CIO,

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five times CIO, very influential IT leader.

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And he told me a story about what happened to him on 9/11

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and the IT problems that he dealt with that day in New York.

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And he was like, I've never told that story in 20 years.

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And I really, it kind of makes me realize,

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I think I want to write a book

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and I want that to be part of it.

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And he was like, it's just so,

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thank you for being able to tell the story.

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So then I kind of had that realization

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that we're unearthing stories that people want to tell

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but they don't have the ability to sit down

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and write it out and we're giving it to them.

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And that is creating value for that person too.

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And then I looked at companies,

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like does any company have any way

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to like cultivate these stories?

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Not customer stories,

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not just talking about products and services,

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but to do that.

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And I was like, no, they don't have that.

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They don't have like a muscle in the organization

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that tells stories that are not just

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about their products and services

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but are about their community in a way.

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And like Sales Services is like the best one.

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And I was sitting there like,

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hey, we're making all these shows.

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And so I came to the same conclusion that you did

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and sort of the opposite way through content

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that content is pipeline.

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- Absolutely.

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- Like it drives pipeline, it accelerates pipeline,

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it does all that stuff.

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And so few companies ever looked at it that way.

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Why do you think that that was?

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Why do you think that the investment into content

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and how the organization was structured

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is sort of been an afterthought?

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- Yeah, I think there's maybe two different trends

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versus like how we define content.

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Because this is not universal,

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but if you look at maybe most B2B kind of marketing teams,

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do you have a content person or content team?

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They're like, yeah, they're pumping out SEO articles,

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anchor pages, we're writing it for Google

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and that's, we're doing sort of the inbound marketing

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kind of thing.

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But again, I'm not trying to like diminish that.

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I think that's important.

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It's just, it's getting more like,

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we're all competing for the same keywords

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and there's only so much attention to capture.

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So I think-

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- This is zero sub game, right?

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- Yeah.

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- There's 10 spots on Google.

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- If you want to be in the top couple.

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- Exactly.

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- And we know that it works.

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But I mean, even Rayan Fishkin,

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who like wrote the book on SEO,

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is like now like, hey, this stuff is not a good thing

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to invest. - Exactly right.

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And I think that's actually a super interesting point.

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And very timely, we've spent the last two decades

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trying to automate marketing.

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Marketing automation is the language that we've used.

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And it's timely because literally yesterday,

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John Miller, just saw his face up there a second ago,

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co-founder of Marketo just released a post

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that literally was like vulnerable, I'd say for him to write.

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It was like the playbook that I wrote for marketing,

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no longer works.

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And so even Marketo is saying up here,

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saying like the old way of thinking about content

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as a function of maybe driving traffic

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to potentially drive inbound conversions

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to sort of like run that play,

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it's just not working in this modern world.

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And so I think your point on storytelling

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is super interesting because

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there's only so much attention that we can capture.

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And I think what it's like a cheesy thing to say,

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but we're realizing that even B2B buyers are human beings

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that want to be entertained and educated.

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And that's what pierces through the noise

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is if we can tell stories in a compelling way

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that will fundamentally drive more pipeline,

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more affinity, more sustainable relationship

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than trying to sort of like trick someone

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into filling out an ebook form

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so we can like spam them kind of a thing, right?

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That's kind of like the historical context oversimplified,

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but this is a much more authentic, real thing.

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And I think we're just as an industry like hungry

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for authenticity now.

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- Yeah, I think that there's a lot of words

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that sort of needed redefinition.

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Brand is one, content is one.

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And I heard brand describing recently

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is like brand is your buying experience

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and your customer experience.

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So if that's the case and you're investing

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in like customer experience and how they go through the funnel,

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then and part of your buying experience is your website

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and how quickly someone can go to your website.

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Obviously the great people are qualified

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who put this whole thing on that,

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Craig, when I talked to his CEO years ago

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and they were starting qualified, he was like,

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if the CEO of their biggest prospect walked into the door

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to your headquarters, which in my cases,

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by my office, my actual house,

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but if that kept, even better,

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you would roll out the red carpet,

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you'd go get them a drink, you'd have, you know,

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do all this stuff.

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If that person comes to your website, nobody cares.

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- Yeah. - Right.

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And then you just get treated like anyone else

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who comes to your website.

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And so again, that's about your buying experience.

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What is the like to go through that?

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Well, that buying experience happens with 5% of the people

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that are going through buying a product

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and the other 95% of the time,

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you're not buying stuff.

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And we have very little time, money and energy invested

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in the 95% of times that people are pre-buying, pre-research.

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And so like we know that 67% of the time

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that people do research before talking to sales.

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But what about before they're doing research?

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And like it seems like inception

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and it seems like kind of silly to even like talk

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about this stuff, but it's true.

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Like 13 impressions equal as a sale.

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Well, if you have someone on your podcast series, for example,

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and you have the reaching out to them, the prep call,

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the having them on the recording,

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following up with them afterwards, you know,

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people then you posting it on social,

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them posting on social people from their company commenting

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and all that sort of stuff, people, you know,

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months later reaching out.

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So you get just from one podcast episode, for example,

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you get all of that.

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And if that content then is getting resurfaced

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on a platform like Audience Plus on your website

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over and over and over again to new buyers.

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And then they see that piece of content to,

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hey, by the way, did you, I'd listened to this episode

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that you did like four months ago,

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and like you and AK were talking about this stuff,

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like that's pretty cool.

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Like it lives on and like that is super important.

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And then the final piece here on sort of like

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we could go into the whole AI conversation.

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The idea is like what Anthony is doing right now

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for his marketing strategy, like today, this quarter,

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what he's gonna do for Q4 is really, really interesting

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to me personally, right?

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Like that's not something that you can shove into chat

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TPT and like crank out and put a blog post on your blog.

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You need to have Anthony give his insights in real time

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about what he's doing for next quarter

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'cause that's what people are looking for.

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Like pure driven insights is the thing that like

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I realize and I unlocked of like we have to unearth

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the peer driven insights, which people are historically

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bad at giving and then share those

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and disseminate those with people

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and then put it in the right place at the right time

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with platforms like Audience Plus on the website

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when people do that.

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And so this, it just changes the fundamental way that

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to think about how we're serving the right information

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of the right people and using their peers as a proxy

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for a writer sitting there like with a blank Google doc,

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which I think is just the wrong way of thinking about it.

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- Oh, absolutely, no.

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The other thing I mean is you're talking about

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just like all the touch points that you're doing

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as you're bringing guests on the show and everything.

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You're building a relationship, right?

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And I think that's part of this.

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We're chatting before we came up here.

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There's almost like a renaissance happening in B2B marketing

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where we're going back to like our basis where what do we do?

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We understand the channels and the ability to create content

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or to scale the ability to build a relationship

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to establish trust behind a brand.

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Nick used to say like, you know,

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if you get me in front of a customer, like,

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you know, we used to think against,

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I've put Nick in front of a customer, things are good.

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So we got to get him in front of a million customers.

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And we can't do that because of space and time.

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So through our content, we're able to scale Nick

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and the trust that he can build to the world

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through things like podcasts and live streams

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and all these types of things.

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So I think the common kind of point here

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and not in the connection to pipeline

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is that through this new, not new approach,

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but this renewed sense of re-imagining our content marketing,

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we're building relationship

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and we're helping ultimately drive business through that.

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- Yeah, I tell our team this,

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but I'm like, I should be doing five things.

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Should we talk to someone on our team,

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talking to a potential, you know, a prospect or a partner,

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talking to a customer, talking into a microphone,

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you know, somewhere that goes out there

16:53

or talking to a customer.

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And it's like, as a CEO, like,

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that's what I want to be doing.

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And that's what every CEO should be doing.

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I mean, they have to talk to their board too.

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And people like that.

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But generally speaking, like, talking to a microphone

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is something that they haven't invested in.

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We do Snowflake series and Frank Slubin

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is like one of the most brilliant people as a technologist.

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But we've worked on that series

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and they are methodical with how they think

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about Frank's thought leadership.

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And everyone you talk to is like, oh, I've read "Amped Up."

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And you're like, oh, so I guess writing a book still does work

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and they have this really good series.

17:29

And you just start to look at that

17:30

and like how your executives perform

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and not just executives, other people on your team,

17:35

your CMO, if you're selling to engineers,

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your head of engineering, like those perspectives matter too

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and you need to create vehicles for them as well

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to share thought leadership.

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Like it matters.

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And the term thought leadership is just a stupid term anyways.

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Like it's loaded to people buy from people ultimately.

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And so I think that's sort of the thing.

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We can kind of put them in a position to, you know,

17:56

to people to get to know us, our leadership team,

17:59

our extended team.

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Like I think that's the core kind of premise.

18:03

Switching gears to your go-to-market.

18:06

So Audience Plus, you officially launched the company when?

18:10

- May officially.

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- And then previous to that, you were in the lab working on stuff.

18:14

I remember you showed me the deck, we were on site too.

18:16

I was like, dude, I already get it.

18:18

Audience Plus, I'm 100% in.

18:20

I don't even need to see the rest of the deck.

18:21

I know exactly where you're going.

18:23

So how long did you work building up before you launched?

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- Yeah, so we raised our seed round in March of 22.

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I think we talked probably like April of 22,

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something on those lines.

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And we've been building the product kind of ever since

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in October of that year.

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We started launching our own content, right?

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'Cause we're like, we gotta walk in the shoes of our customer.

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We gotta evangelize this kind of concept.

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We're kind of calling it own the media for now.

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It's not obviously our language.

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It's in textbooks for generations.

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But I think one that we sort of skipped over a little bit

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in terms of modern B2B marketing.

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So we've been trying to educate and inspire

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around this idea of own media.

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And then we launched the company and May announced it,

19:05

talked about the product and have been kind of selling

19:08

and kind of marketing ever since.

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But we're a seed stage company.

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So we don't have, you know, hop in budget

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or that's a whole other podcast.

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But we don't have like the budget of, you know,

19:19

a traditional kind of ass scale business.

19:22

And so we believe that a lot of this stuff

19:25

we're talking about here doesn't have to be super, super expensive.

19:28

Like you can, you've got the stories, right?

19:30

Like that's ultimately the currency of what you need.

19:32

So a lot of what we've been doing is going all in

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on content production events, like those types of things

19:40

as a function of building our subscriber base

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for lack of a better term.

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And then using our subscriber base to kind of monetize

19:48

that into revenue.

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So, you know, one of the big kind of hallmarks

19:53

of that was our launch event that we did.

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So we hosted this like four hour LinkedIn takeover event.

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We had a celebrity.

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So hopefully we can talk about this a little bit,

20:02

but the power of celebrity and B2B marketing.

20:06

But we had Topanga from Boy Meets World.

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There's any 90s sitcom fans here hosted it for us.

20:12

Nostalgia is this weird thing where it's not like super expensive,

20:15

but also it hits like, you know, it's very effective.

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And we drew some inspiration from like space X launches

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where they're counting down in this pre show to this big reveal,

20:26

which was this keynote.

20:27

And then we took inspiration from The Bachelor, which I know,

20:31

but it was basically like the after the rose ceremony

20:33

where we brought people up to react to the keynote

20:37

and kind of the implications.

20:38

And so it was this beautiful kind of, you know,

20:41

moment that we tried to engineer.

20:44

And that really kind of kicked things off for us, I think,

20:46

because we were sort of like in the lab to use your language,

20:49

kind of talking about this thing.

20:51

But we wanted to create this sort of like cataclysmic kind

20:53

of moment for the industry to gather.

20:56

And since then, you know, we've been trying to kind of,

20:59

you know, find ways to one up that kind of, you know, going forward.

21:03

Yeah, I would say that, you know, obviously every,

21:07

every, you know, great technology company sort of is

21:10

you're heading this movement and this whole like,

21:13

any raskin sort of, you know, create the change that is happening.

21:18

Company like qualified, where, you know, you look at

21:21

conversational marketing, you look at someone turning your website

21:24

into a selling machine.

21:25

Yeah.

21:26

And how just how few people think about that?

21:28

Yet when you talk to marketers, like I've asked what 150 marketers,

21:32

how do they think about their website?

21:33

They're like, oh my God, it's the storefront.

21:34

It's the most important thing.

21:35

It's so important.

21:36

Like how much do you invest in like turning that into selling machines?

21:39

Like, oh, well, you know, we're, we're a value.

21:41

And you're like, what are you talking about?

21:42

You just said it's the most important thing.

21:44

But so, you know, like qualified, obviously,

21:46

spearheading that movement, you obviously spearheading this own

21:52

content movement.

21:53

And it's so important.

21:56

And I think the reason why that your event was so well received

21:59

in your launch was so well received was because

22:02

of the fact that people are looking for this like crystallization

22:08

of what they see around them.

22:09

They see Salesforce Plus, they see the HubSpot Podcast Network.

22:12

They see companies like Paddle and Qualified with Qualified Plus

22:16

and all these things that are like, wait a second, the best marketers

22:20

are building out this own content portfolio of shows and events

22:26

and really cool, interesting content that's very persona driven.

22:30

It's like hyper specific.

22:32

It's like multi-channel, it's multi-format.

22:35

Like all of the best folks are doing this.

22:37

And I'm kind of sitting here like banging out another blog post

22:41

that like is going to get six views for a term that like do we even

22:45

know if we need or not?

22:46

Yeah.

22:46

And so I think that there was some of that happen.

22:48

Did you feel like after the event that that you got that type of feedback

22:52

from people?

22:52

Totally, totally.

22:53

I think that was the, you know, if you're a content professional

22:57

and you're hearing kind of this message, this is hopefully really encouraging

23:00

and exciting because this is the type of stuff content folks wanted to work on.

23:04

At least in my, the folks that I had worked with, I think the other piece

23:09

that's interesting is taking it, you know, further down funnel because we've

23:12

had,

23:13

you know, we talked about this a little bit, like the traditional tactics

23:15

to generating pipeline just aren't working anymore.

23:17

Right.

23:17

And so we've, you know, the message that we've been kind of trying to

23:20

articulate

23:20

is a big part of that is because we've been either paying for access to our

23:25

audience through digital advertising or renting it through these third party

23:29

platforms.

23:30

So this idea of like, you know, that again, this fits into the broader kind

23:34

of audience acquisition bundle.

23:35

So I'm not suggesting like stay away from this, but like, you know, doing an

23:39

expensive like video project, putting it on YouTube and your CEO asking you,

23:42

how did that go?

23:43

Right.

23:43

I don't know.

23:44

We got like 100 views on it.

23:45

I think it was okay.

23:46

There might have been a bump in traffic and we're like telling that story.

23:49

So I think the feedback that kind of helped affirm and validate like this, this

23:56

broader idea of own audience building or whatever we want to refer to it as is

24:01

there's

24:02

an appetite for new ideas in the demand team and the pipeline generation team.

24:07

I think qualifies to be such a great job of that and kind of advocating for the

24:12

owned experience and how do we kind of make that a storefront?

24:15

I love that, that kind of analogy.

24:17

But I think that's why this is really resonating a lot is this feels like an

24:22

opportunity for us to do something that's authentic, to have access to the data

24:28

that's

24:29

proving that it's working.

24:30

And ultimately we're seeing signal of like higher conversions and better

24:35

connection to outcomes.

24:37

So it's no longer a brand thing.

24:40

Like we kind of opened up the conversation talking about it could be and it's

24:43

important, but it actually is fundamentally now a driver to revenue.

24:47

And I think that's what people have been really excited about.

24:49

That's something that can take to their CFO in 2023 and say this isn't just we

24:53

're

24:53

not going to write this off.

24:54

Like this is fundamentally like how we're going to hit our number this year.

24:57

And we weren't able to really put a lot of language around that until recently.

25:02

Well, yeah, I mean, and I think like for us, you know, we work with 65 plus,

25:09

you

25:09

know, B2B technology companies.

25:10

And for us, like if you're talking to someone who has a poor attribution

25:16

strategy, like you will not get good information.

25:19

Yeah.

25:20

Like you're saying, hey, we do last touch app attribution.

25:22

You're like, yeah, I mean, sure.

25:25

Yeah.

25:25

But you're you're that's you're juking your own stats.

25:29

Right.

25:29

Like that at the end of the day, like, so like, let's just use webinars.

25:33

So they've been to 17 webinars, but then they got a cold email and like you

25:38

attribute the deal to the cold email.

25:40

Right.

25:41

Like, I don't think that that's a super good plan.

25:44

But that's a lot of the conversations that we have is just a marketer being

25:48

like,

25:49

Hey, this is how attribution is done here.

25:51

And like, I don't even know how to tag this.

25:53

Yeah.

25:54

Right.

25:54

But like we cast me and we source 21% of the revenue for our business from our

25:59

series, from our own original content of like 100% sourced.

26:04

Wow.

26:04

So I mean, you're just looking at like, if we turn it off, that's 20% less.

26:09

And I would imagine it would be a lot higher than that.

26:12

Yeah.

26:12

But that's like cold sourced.

26:14

Yep.

26:14

Right.

26:14

So I think it's just tricky for people to try to figure out how to, how content

26:22

drives ROI and drives by porn.

26:25

And I think that what we're working on is trying to develop those plays

26:30

so you can put it into your playbook of like, OK, this is how you use a video

26:34

podcast for, you know, for cold.

26:37

This is how you use it for pipeline acceleration.

26:39

Right.

26:39

This is how you use it for customer story, like evangelism.

26:43

This is how you use it for the leadership executive play.

26:46

This is how you use, oh, you have, you know, a revived account or a

26:50

able by next quarter account.

26:51

Like this is how you use it.

26:53

This is how you position it.

26:54

Um, and those plays just like no one is running those people who are running

26:58

them

26:58

are not sort of sharing those.

27:00

And those are directly pipeline driven plays.

27:04

And like, when is content ever running pipeline plays?

27:07

Like, when is the content person even ever sitting with the demand person?

27:11

Shut up, Sarah.

27:12

Um, but you know what I mean?

27:14

Like, it's just not very common.

27:15

Totally.

27:16

I think that's right.

27:17

I was thinking, you know, the other piece of it is, you know, I think

27:20

attribution in general, such a sticky, you know, to your point, kind of complex

27:24

topic.

27:24

I think just the point of view that we're starting to develop is it's not that

27:29

it's not fundamentally working today.

27:34

It's just that it's a lot easier if the data is first party.

27:37

Right.

27:38

We know that here's what they're, you know, they like we can attribute a

27:43

multi touch model, but we have the touch points that we can cue off of, right?

27:48

That's the value.

27:50

And so like there's no, there's no question.

27:52

You have to put your podcast on Spotify, Apple music.

27:55

You have to be where your audience is.

27:56

You have to put your videos on YouTube from like an organic discovery,

27:59

perspective,

28:00

paid media.

28:00

So none of this is sort of like saying like, hey, run away from all of these,

28:05

like

28:05

these platforms.

28:06

But I think for a brand to send traffic to YouTube through an email post,

28:12

through

28:12

a email, a social post, it's like, why?

28:15

Like if we can send that traffic instead to our website, to the storefronts, to

28:21

the

28:21

revenue sales machine that we're building, we have a higher propensity to get a

28:26

conversion and at, or not, or best case, or if not that, at least we can

28:31

understand

28:31

that someone from this company is actually engaging with this topic or this

28:35

format.

28:35

And that might be interesting as we're thinking about kind of monetization down

28:40

down funnels.

28:40

So, um, so again, it's a sticky topic, but I think we're seeing this kind of

28:45

pull toward first party data.

28:47

And I think that's really kind of at the heart of proving impact of content.

28:52

Yeah.

28:52

I mean, I think another piece on that is people are just dumping

28:56

money into Google ads, Facebook ads and LinkedIn.

28:59

And like, if you cord on off a little bit of that and create original series,

29:06

then

29:07

you can see like, Hey, this is, we're running these plays and we're doing this

29:11

stuff and start to measure the impact with the idea of like, to get to that

29:15

point.

29:16

Yeah.

29:16

Is, you know, that's the sacred cow for a lot of people.

29:20

And like for a lot of people we talked to, I'm kind of a budget items, which we

29:23

're

29:23

going to do here in a second is, you know, Google ads are still, you know, one

29:27

of

29:27

things like, of course, it should be, but at the same time, like that is a very

29:31

high intent situation.

29:33

Right.

29:33

How do we get ahead of that?

29:35

Right.

29:35

Before they're searching for something, they're when they're not in market,

29:39

when

29:39

it's, you know, Q one and they're not going to budget again.

29:42

So another nine months, how are you, what's your plan of engagement and Q work?

29:47

Yep.

29:47

Cause it can't be Google ads.

29:49

Like it can't be faced or Facebook ads or LinkedIn ads.

29:51

Right.

29:51

Unless you're running the same copy at them all year long.

29:55

Yep.

29:56

Of like by now, by now, like that makes no sense.

29:59

That's right.

30:00

That's right.

30:00

So what are your uncuttable budget items for audience plus?

30:04

Oh man.

30:05

What is budget for a seed stage company?

30:07

Everything, everything is just like for crafts.

30:11

Um, you know, very tactically, I hope it's not too revealing, but like, you

30:17

know, we spend very, we've tried to just for a company of our size and budget

30:21

candidly is like we tried to in house some of our content production.

30:25

Um, and so I think over time we want to work with great partners to help us

30:28

really scale and take the production quality up and really kind of go to that

30:32

next level.

30:33

So our, our cost to produce is very little.

30:37

Um, we're spending money on, um, LinkedIn organic, which is kind of random.

30:44

Um, this gentleman named Alex Lieberman at Morning Brew.

30:46

I'm not sure if he's kind of a thought leader in the kind of audience building

30:51

space, he started this agency around ghost writing for execs.

30:55

Yeah.

30:55

Have you seen that story?

30:56

Are you?

30:56

Yeah.

30:56

Um, so we're one of his first customers.

30:59

Uh, and so the spoiler is like, uh, hopefully again, not revealing too much.

31:02

Like I'm not writing like what I'm, what's going on on LinkedIn.

31:05

This agency is actually doing it for me.

31:06

They'll interview me back to the idea of storytelling and produce, uh, a post

31:11

every day and, uh, so we've literally tried to cut almost everything, but

31:17

that's the one that we can't get rid of.

31:19

Yeah.

31:19

Because like we were doing the, like Chris Walker, um, you know, self-reported

31:23

attribution or a lead forms and like literally almost everyone that we're

31:27

getting that's not true, but like 50 to 60% of our form fills are like, saw you

31:31

on LinkedIn, saw you on LinkedIn.

31:33

I walked in today and two people were like, Oh, I think I saw you on LinkedIn,

31:35

like saying something.

31:36

So, uh, an important driver towards building traffic to send to your site, to

31:46

convert into subscriber is how we sort of engage on these rented spaces.

31:50

And for me to be at least, LinkedIn is, I think, like the predominant

31:53

surface for us to really, um, figure out.

31:56

I was just so bad at it.

31:58

Like I'd write like paragraphs and like you get like no impressions and then

32:02

they were really kind of helped coach me on how to, um, do better in terms of

32:06

content distribution in that channel as well as just building relationship.

32:10

Um, and so far that's actually working quite well for us.

32:13

Yeah.

32:14

It's interesting to hear you say content development, yeah, executive

32:18

thought leadership, um, as like, you know, the main two drivers there and then

32:23

LinkedIn organic, which is again, that's still a content play, but it's your

32:28

distribution channel being linked in zero paid.

32:30

We don't have any budget for paid media whatsoever.

32:33

We're not doing it for now.

32:35

Like I'm not saying that's forever.

32:36

Yeah.

32:37

But, um, at if we're kind of putting the efficiency hat on, like we're like,

32:41

all right, so how can we leverage these channels that we're talking about today

32:43

and actually do the thing that we're going to ask our customers to do?

32:46

Um, so sorry, I'm catching off, but yeah.

32:48

And how many shows do you have right now?

32:49

Um, four different shows and then a monthly kind of event series.

32:55

Um, yeah.

32:56

How many of those do you host personally?

32:58

Well, that's actually been, it's actually a good question for you because, um,

33:02

I've in the earliest days, I've hosted like almost all of them except for one,

33:07

but that's not my ambition.

33:09

Like I, I, I think about our media brand or I refer to it as like, I think,

33:15

I think, I think this is good advice for other companies, but love your,

33:18

your thoughts on it is to make it feel more like a network.

33:20

Yeah.

33:21

Where it's not me as like the voice, but, and it's not even audience plus

33:25

employees

33:26

that are delivering this content, but that we're almost building this like

33:30

creator network of sorts of subject matter experts in the domain that we're

33:36

talking about and almost like commissioning them to produce content for us.

33:41

Um, and what that gives us is a couple of things.

33:43

Scale for content cadence, making sure we're dropping kind of new episodes all

33:47

the time to their, bringing their brand equity into our network.

33:51

And so it's not just this like self-serving thing anymore, but it's like,

33:54

this is for the community by the community.

33:56

Um, but also there's built in distribution.

33:59

If you choose your, your creators the right way, they're promoting each

34:02

episode to their audience and it's helping kind of create more viewership.

34:06

So I don't like what we're doing today because it's very me driven and I want

34:11

to get out of that.

34:11

Um, and again, very small team, very small budgets, but our hope is to like

34:16

have

34:16

ambition to do more of the network type thing where we have a diversity of

34:21

voices and perspectives that are contributing to the conversation.

34:24

Yeah.

34:25

I think it's, I think both are a winning strategy.

34:28

Well, we see, um, uh, and if you take it, look like an example of this

34:33

qualified,

34:33

so with qualified, uh, plus you have, uh, three different shows.

34:38

So, uh, I host pipeline visionaries.

34:40

I host rise of rise of RobOps and then Dan Darcy hosts and said the Oana.

34:44

And if you look at the way that those three shows, there is three different

34:49

separate personas.

34:50

Um, it's the way that we, the way that we have developed those over time is

34:56

very

34:56

specific in the way that we do it. Um, and, and that works really well.

35:00

Um, for, for some of our other customers, we go and source external hosts, like

35:07

train them, coach them, whatever.

35:08

Sometimes those are people who are just experts in the space for no media

35:11

training.

35:12

So we coach them up.

35:12

Other times there are people who do have a little bit more of that.

35:16

That works really well.

35:17

Um, and what I think the best way to do it, and we talk with the CMO, um, of

35:22

click up and she, and yes, she's, oh, yeah, you know, Melissa.

35:26

Yeah.

35:26

Uh, she's awesome.

35:27

Their strategy is creating thought leaderships of their executive team at

35:32

click up.

35:33

That is like quarter of their strategy.

35:34

And it's absolutely a winning strategy.

35:36

We have a bunch of customers that do that too.

35:37

So I think the answer is actually it's all of the above.

35:40

Yeah.

35:41

It's you want to source external speakers.

35:44

You want friendlies, you want internal employees and you, and you want to do

35:47

that.

35:47

And the thing that I think is so funny is like people treat like

35:51

shows specifically like they're a one size fits all.

35:54

Well, some people like to watch the news.

35:56

So people don't some tea.

35:58

Some people like to watch Marvel movies.

36:00

Yeah.

36:01

Some people don't.

36:01

Some people like to watch like one, one of the CEOs of one of our customers is

36:06

like, Lowe's Rogan, Lowe's like super long form, two hour.

36:09

It's like, I really want our podcast to be that way.

36:11

Like totally.

36:13

Yeah.

36:13

But there's also a massive, you know, percentage of the population that wants a

36:18

10 to 20 minute, easy lesson, easy drink and beer that they can, that they can,

36:22

you know, watch or listen to when they're walking their dog.

36:26

And so the answer isn't that one is right or wrong.

36:29

It's that people have different preferences and how they consume that.

36:32

So one of the most popular episodes I ever did was with the CMO Spotify.

36:36

And we did, we did like two and a half hours.

36:38

Yeah.

36:38

And it was amazing.

36:40

The entire time.

36:41

But that doesn't mean that like every one of your shows needs to be the exact

36:45

same.

36:45

So in a variety of the spice of life and you need to think about things of like

36:49

people consume things in different ways.

36:52

And some people might listen, like listening to AK and some people might, you

36:56

know, can't stand you as a vote.

36:58

And like that's totally fine.

36:59

So let them opt into the types of content that they want.

37:02

What's interesting about that and qualified in particular is the optimization

37:06

is around the persona or the audience in terms of format, in terms of who they

37:10

are,

37:10

the problems they're solving, not keywords, right?

37:12

And that's what we're coming from.

37:14

Like, and that's what's changing.

37:15

And, you know, I think we're still in the early days, candidly, because we're

37:18

still creating content ideas based on what we think is going to generate more

37:23

organic search traffic to the site, which is again, table stakes and good.

37:27

And someone should probably do something there.

37:29

But this is that next chapter where it's content that is authentic for a

37:34

specific subset of your audience that is told in story, delivers value and

37:38

builds

37:39

relationship.

37:39

Um, and the second piece I was going to say is like, you know, we, we,

37:43

we think about our content, like calendar, like network TV a little bit,

37:47

where there's like a fall slate, summer slate, a winter slate.

37:50

So we're coming out of our summer slate now with like a new set of shows.

37:53

And so, um, and again, I don't know how much of this is like a good, best

37:57

practice,

37:57

but the spice, the variety being the spice of life thing, like we can mix it up

38:02

Where in the fall, we're targeting these personas with these formats.

38:06

It might be audio or video or, or it might be like a show that's like a teard

38:10

own

38:10

show as opposed to an interview or something to that, an entertainment

38:14

murder mystery.

38:15

And we're able to kind of go, you know, into different seasons and introduce

38:19

new

38:20

value in new formats for the same audience.

38:23

Um, so I think as we're thinking about a content strategy, there's a lot of

38:27

like

38:27

cool analogies from Hollywood, from the consumer world that we can, you know,

38:31

we're going to talk about that soon here, um, that, that I think can be, um,

38:36

that can really up level kind of how we're thinking about production today.

38:39

Yeah. So the R for tenants of, of our framework are, uh, so peer driven

38:45

insights.

38:45

So it's got to be peer led.

38:46

It's got to be persona based.

38:49

It's got to be multi-channel, multi-format.

38:51

So you have to have an own content piece of this and then understand your

38:53

distribution

38:54

strategies.

38:55

And then, uh, it's got to be serialized.

38:58

So like serialized content is eating the world.

39:00

Yes.

39:00

This is like, if you look at every type of media right now, like Mattel is

39:04

investing

39:05

hugely in serialized content, creating franchises that have a brand.

39:09

And doing that stuff.

39:10

If you look at Barbie and all that stuff, like Lego happened a decade ago and

39:14

they

39:15

rolled out Barbie and it's like the biggest smash it ever 10 years later.

39:18

So this is how slow Mattel was to figure out like, Hey, we made this like a

39:22

marketing

39:23

thing that made us $450 million.

39:25

Like we should probably start doing this again.

39:27

And now they have an entire slate of programming.

39:29

That's franchise.

39:30

So I think like with those four tenants for B2B, that's the way that we think

39:33

about

39:34

it.

39:34

And you're talking about our, the murder mystery that we do with your past

39:38

murder

39:38

and murder and HR.

39:39

And like that is a core piece of this thing is like nobody in B2B does fiction.

39:44

And because it's hard and because like getting Hollywood talent and doing that

39:48

stuff is way harder.

39:50

There's no traffic on the extra mile, but we've seen with that show, like the

39:54

number

39:55

one fiction show in all of Apple right now, you know, we did 140,000 downloads

39:59

for

39:59

us. Like two weeks.

40:00

Yeah.

40:00

And the reason why is because HR people who we made it for love it, but also

40:05

other

40:05

people like it.

40:06

Yeah.

40:06

So it's just another like, again,

40:08

it's an easy drink and beer.

40:09

It's the 5%, you know, summer lager that you're just like, hey, I can throw

40:14

this

40:14

on on my walk.

40:15

This is super cool.

40:16

And then you become a fan of it.

40:18

And like some people might love that format.

40:21

Some people might love interview style, but you're giving people different

40:24

types

40:25

of options.

40:26

And then they engage with you in different ways.

40:28

Here's a fun fact.

40:29

So Jim Pass had a prospect of theirs, like a, a semi warm prospect reach out to

40:37

their

40:37

sales team because they wanted a private screening of murder and HR.

40:42

Whoa.

40:43

Like when do you ever, when do your ads ever get you to get private meetings

40:47

with your prospects, right?

40:48

And it's like because the levels of engagement are so different, right?

40:52

That's right.

40:52

And it opens questions like, how did you get Camara to do this?

40:56

How did you get break out?

40:57

And that sort of stuff I think is like what's missing from B2B is that like

41:01

spontaneity and like variety and edutainment and something interesting that

41:07

just is not really commonly invested in because it's like, well, that doesn't

41:11

try to pipe points.

41:12

Like, no, actually it does.

41:13

And we can prove that now.

41:14

And it feeds fandom to which I think is an interesting language that we haven't

41:18

used too much in B2B.

41:19

But also you can build like a whole marketing thing around that.

41:21

Like what if there was like a private event or a live recording with, with

41:25

Mara and Brett, is it like that you have all your key prospects in?

41:29

It's like high touch kind of ABM campaign.

41:32

So I mean, there's all of this stuff can be integrated into the fabric of your

41:36

go-to market to help drive sales.

41:39

Ultimately, it's not just this like, you know, I mean, hitting the top of the

41:43

charts

41:44

is incredible, by the way, like maybe the first B2B marketing.

41:47

I think it's got to be the first that's even close.

41:50

Right.

41:51

But now like you've proven that hypothesis and now we can take that and turn

41:55

into an entire kind of program really that drives more revenue, which is great.

41:59

And like Jim Pass's strategy, their core marketing strategy and content

42:05

strategy is about providing value to their community that's value added.

42:09

Like they love HR people.

42:11

They're trying to make the employee experience better for all of their

42:15

customers.

42:15

And that's what HR people are trying to do.

42:18

And so like when you, when you take that premise and then you say, well, what,

42:23

what

42:23

content can we make for HR people to surprise and delight them in a way that

42:28

serves them?

42:29

Like, and one of the conversations early on was like, what does a love letter

42:32

to HR

42:33

look like? How do we show them that they are seen and appreciated and heard

42:37

and that we understand what they're going through?

42:39

I was in HR.

42:40

So I knew what that was like.

42:42

And part of the reason why we wrote it in the way that we did was to put a

42:45

shine on HR to put their name in lights in a way that had never, ever been done

42:49

And if you look at the Hollywoodization of HR has been extremely negative, I

42:55

think

42:55

I think for tech, it's the same way.

42:57

And like nobody can tell authentic business stories.

43:00

And so that stuff, I think there's a, there's a like real understanding and

43:04

longing for to be seen like that.

43:07

Right.

43:07

I, I, when I was in Scotland, when I was a kid, and I remember getting a tour,

43:12

and they were talking about the movie Braveheart and the, the guy was like,

43:16

this

43:16

was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong.

43:18

And so all that said, it's an 11 out of 10 and we love it.

43:21

You know, like, and like that's how it is like, you know, long.

43:24

Yeah.

43:24

You feel like they're a part of it.

43:25

Yeah.

43:26

That's so cool.

43:27

So what are you seeing when you're talking to CMOs?

43:30

Yeah.

43:31

And how they're investing in content, how they're connecting it to pipeline.

43:37

Obviously, you know, on pipeline visionaries, it's all we think about here.

43:41

And, and we know that it's working, but it seems like it's a pretty uphill

43:46

battle

43:46

to try to go to your CFO and say, hey, we're going to invest in content.

43:51

And then they come back and go, yeah, but, but, but where's the number?

43:56

Yeah.

43:57

I mean, certainly, I think that the, again, the conversation being had between

44:02

CFOs

44:02

and CMOs today is all that efficient growth.

44:05

Like that's kind of the parent umbrella.

44:08

Because the only thing we know for sure that we can't do this year with the

44:13

resources

44:14

that we have, with the expectations that are on us is the same thing that we've

44:17

done for the last several years.

44:18

So there's in a way, you know, an optimistic way to think about that, that

44:22

there's

44:22

appetite for new ideas within the CMO or the executive team.

44:27

Now, I think for the majority of the conversations we have, we're still in the

44:33

early, early adopter innovator phase of this belief and this new kind of

44:38

mentality.

44:39

So we're trying to do our job of evangelizing it and talking through it as much

44:42

as we can.

44:43

But for companies that really get it, you know, qualified being one, there's

44:49

sort

44:49

of like a, you know, you hit this earlier, taking a slice out of your paid

44:55

budget,

44:55

which is traditionally for most marketing teams, the largest line item on the

44:59

program

45:00

budget for market marketers, just a little slice out of that could produce

45:05

enough

45:06

content to prove the hypothesis.

45:08

So that's sort of the step one.

45:09

It's like, all right, we're not saying we're going to step into like a brand

45:13

new

45:13

budgetary ask, we're going to take something off of search marketing, let's say

45:17

, like

45:17

keep the LinkedIn spend or whatever, the amplification budget, but like, let's

45:20

take

45:20

search and invest in producing one show or something to that end.

45:24

So that sort of starts the conversation.

45:28

And we're hearing actually some pretty interesting appetite there.

45:32

And I think the piece that that is resonating with our message is we're saying,

45:35

hey, if you can use those content assets in a way where you can distribute in

45:42

those

45:43

rented channels to drive attention, but then do it in service of driving owned

45:47

audience, we can actually start to measure the impact of this in a pretty

45:50

material way.

45:51

We're not going to have to wait for Google to maybe index the post, which might

45:55

take a while and then we'll have this like anonymous web visit that we think

45:58

could potentially like that sort of feedback loop that is long and kind of hard

46:05

to justify to a CFO candidly.

46:09

Isn't necessarily the case when you have a subscriber, we have someone that is

46:14

opted into your content where we see if they're coming back, what they're

46:19

watching, what topics they're interested in.

46:20

And so, you know, I think part of the value proposition of what we're trying to

46:25

offer is you could get a pretty close, a pretty fast feedback loop on content

46:30

you're producing today, if you're able to have the data to prove the connection

46:36

to do something else.

46:37

So if I were to extrapolate that, I would say the MQL of the past is being

46:43

challenged.

46:44

And I think what people are starting to kind of get around to is this idea of

46:47

audience engagement as a leading indicator to pipeline.

46:49

Yeah.

46:50

So if I know that back to the Jim Pass example, people are consuming this,

46:54

they're coming back for the second episode and the third or they're binging

46:57

the whole series, like, and we have that context.

47:00

That is super interesting for us for a, you know, how this deal is trending to

47:05

potentially being, you know, being a real opportunity for us.

47:08

So I think we're seeing this, like the language change internally as well

47:11

around

47:12

audience and around this idea of how we measure engagement as a leading

47:16

indicator

47:16

to, to pipeline creation.

47:19

It's sometimes it's just seems so obvious and simple to me, where you, where

47:23

you

47:23

look at someone that's a cold account that you have emailed.

47:28

Well, so we did a test.

47:29

I know I've never told you this.

47:30

So we did a test.

47:31

So we ran a cold, we get, we ran cold emails to, I think it was 250 accounts,

47:36

sales emails.

47:37

Yeah.

47:37

Hey, like that still very well written.

47:40

We have a pretty good response.

47:41

Um, basically like, Hey, you buy, buy stuff from cast.

47:46

I mean, it's great.

47:46

Yeah.

47:47

And then we ran the same emails to the same people with, Hey, do you want to

47:53

come on our show and we went from a 1% response rate to 25%.

47:57

Oh, really?

47:58

Wow.

47:59

And so, and like, again, I told you we close 21% of the people coming our show.

48:04

So you're like, you do the math there and you're like, that is an extremely,

48:11

yeah, extremely cheap channel to send a bunch of, you know, cold outreach.

48:16

And, and we set up with our marketing team.

48:18

It was like, why would we ever email anyone ever again?

48:22

Yeah.

48:22

That's not just inviting them on socials.

48:24

Totally.

48:25

Like, why would you ever do that?

48:26

That's the front door.

48:27

Yeah.

48:27

Out of it to the funnel.

48:28

Yeah.

48:29

Yeah.

48:29

And even still, like there's, there's, there's accounts that, you know, we run,

48:33

we run

48:33

some other, you know, cold campaigns that we're still sort of doing based off

48:38

of,

48:38

like, very specific triggers and all that.

48:40

And, and it still just doesn't perform as well, even if that person is ready to

48:44

buy.

48:44

Cause once they see who you are and you're coming, they're like, Oh, by the way

48:47

I was looking for a solution like this.

48:48

Hey, what do you all do?

48:49

So that sales conversation is either going to happen or it's not anyway.

48:53

Right.

48:53

So you may as well invite them to something that actually is value added to

48:56

them

48:57

and, and puts their name in lights and helps them tell a story that they were

49:00

unable to rather than just like just by our stuff.

49:03

And like, it's so simple.

49:05

And you're like, yeah, why is this not like a more common play?

49:08

But then you talk to people and you're like, Hey, we have six hundred and

49:12

seventy

49:13

named accounts that we're going after.

49:14

And you're like, well, so then why would you be dumping in paid

49:19

into Google ads for six hundred and seventy accounts where you could just

49:23

have a targeted strategy to go after the people in those accounts in a value

49:27

added

49:27

way.

49:28

Like you already know the accounts.

49:29

Yeah.

49:30

You know the people.

49:31

They're in your sales force.

49:32

Like you want them to come to you.

49:33

And so I think that there's just like a little bit of a knowledge to say, like,

49:38

do you know that there's a better way?

49:40

Do you know there's a more efficient way to spend your money?

49:42

Yeah.

49:42

And then like that hasn't, you know, certain people get it and other folks are

49:47

still sort of like, yeah, but I got to convince my CFO.

49:49

Yeah.

49:49

Exactly.

49:50

Exactly.

49:50

I think we're on the right side of history, right?

49:53

I think this is sort of, you know, this is where the market is headed.

49:56

And I think it's starting to pick up.

49:58

We're seeing kind of, you know, a lot of companies moving from the 20 year old

50:03

marketing automation playbook to this new one.

50:05

And it's exciting.

50:06

Like I think honestly, it's like, it's so cheesy to say this, but it's like

50:09

never been a better time to be like a B2B marketer.

50:12

Yeah.

50:12

Because our whole practice is in reinvention.

50:15

And if you like storytelling relationships and people and all these

50:19

types of things, it's a good time.

50:21

You know, I think it's a good time for a profession.

50:22

Yeah, I'll add one more, one more thing that I thought was pretty interesting.

50:25

So I was talking to, so one of our customers had this, we did a pilot.

50:29

Everybody wants some pilots, right?

50:31

Cause budgets are tight.

50:32

So we're going to do a pilot.

50:33

It's going to be a 14 episode pilot.

50:35

And, uh, and, and they gave us the name to list accounts.

50:40

We went after there was one huge account massive, massive, like, you know,

50:43

four to 100 company and closed the deal for like 800 K cold from that.

50:50

So like, I think it's like nine plus X ROI on just that one episode, right?

50:55

Wow.

50:55

And so we're going back to their team.

50:57

They're like, yeah, I'm this renewal should be pretty easy.

51:01

But like, why don't you make five more shows?

51:03

Like if you could see this type of ROI and it's like, oh, yeah, I don't know.

51:06

That might be tough.

51:07

And it was just like, what are we talking about?

51:09

Yeah.

51:10

Right.

51:10

It's like this type of thing works.

51:12

And so I think that even still just investing in content, take peeling money

51:17

away from paid into content, even when you can show the ROI is still a tricky

51:22

proposition.

51:23

And so I think that like we have a lot of work to do to, uh, to showcase

51:28

like how content drives pipeline and how you should be connecting those a lot

51:32

better.

51:33

But like you said, it's exciting time.

51:34

Yeah.

51:35

Totally.

51:35

Totally.

51:36

Anthony, great having you on the show.

51:38

Any final thoughts, anything, well, everyone should check out good audience

51:41

plus.

51:41

com obviously.

51:42

Um, yeah.

51:43

And final thoughts.

51:43

No, this is great.

51:45

I'm excited to be here in the dream force and qualified.

51:48

And so looking forward to the day and I appreciate being on the show.

51:51

Yeah.

51:51

Thanks so much.

51:52

I'll take care.

51:53

Thanks.

51:53

Yeah.

51:54

Yeah.