Data-Driven Leadership
On this episode, we talk to Noah about the importance of aligning leadership, harnessing your pipeline to track the predictive health of your business, and his advice for new rev ops leaders.
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Welcome to Riser RevOps. I'm Ian Fazan, CEO of Cast me in studios. And today I
'm joined
by a special guest, Noah. How are you? Doing great. Great to be here. Yeah,
great to have
you on the show. Excited to chat about Udemy and all the cool stuff that Udemy
does for
businesses and all the different rev obstacles that you all go through. So let
's get into
it. First off, tell me about how did you get into this crazy world of rev ops?
Yeah, it's
not a straight path. Probably date myself here, but it's like an old family
circus cartoon,
which just dots all over the place and just all mismatched. So I grew up in
Seattle. I
started my career in sales and enterprise software sold on-prem software, which
came
on a CD, much like our internet did back then as well. And it was a lot of fun.
It was lucrative.
It was a great intro into the technology space and enterprise stuff. It was a
lot of fun.
It was fast moving. It was merit-based. And I kept finding myself wanting to be
in the
conference room that where everyone was discussing what's going on with the
business and what
should we do? We're having some competitors that were eating our lunch and they
weren't
as good. And I felt myself drawn to solving that problem versus going out and
finding
customers and eventually got into some marketing stuff and did a side track
into investment
banking very randomly. Won't even go into that, but it was a dark period of my
life
for four or five years and then came back out and ended up connecting with
somebody
at Salesforce who was in sales strategy and had a background somewhat similar
to mine
and banking and so on. And I was looking to leave and look into something
different. And
with that background of technology joined in. And what I kind of found was that
overlap
between sales, experience marketing experience and finance skills was really
applicable to
the world of kind of sales-op, sales strategy. And it was really interesting.
We were trying
to solve the bigger questions, which I always was fascinated by. And it was
something that
was just emerging. This was maybe, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago and it was
just kind
of coming on the scene, this idea of what is revenue operations on think was a
term then.
And then subsequently I've just gone from the enterprise B2B, SaaS, pre-IPO
startup and
looked to scale those organizations and just iterated on the role along the way
. And then
it's kind of developed into this thing now, which is really kind of funny and
unique,
but nothing I don't think existed 10 years ago. But I think it has a really big
impact
on organizations. And I'm starting to see it as either the go-to-market
strategy and
ops or the rev-ops title appear all over the place, even in the structures of
removing
themselves just from within a business line, but reporting to the CEO or
president. And
so it's exciting. It's focusing on the biggest projects that the company's
facing and how
to make sure it happens. So it's a little bit creativity, a little bit business
experience
and a little bit of mouth. Let's talk Udemy. I'll tell you, we're huge fans of
Udemy here
at Caspian. I had one of our leaders send me a link the other day to Udemy
course and was,
"Hey, I would love to take this." And I was like, "Yeah, this is great. Swipe
the credit card and
go take it." We're a huge fan of learning here at Caspian, trying to figure
that stuff out from
the best people in the world to do it. Udemy for Business obviously is really
exciting for
companies that are trying to figure out how to do that stuff. Can you tell me
about Udemy for
Business and what size and scale that you see there in addition to Udemy the
entire company?
Yeah, it's been crazy. So I've been there just about three years. Udemy is so
unique as an
organization. It blends for-profit company with the concept and the culture of
a nonprofit,
because there's so much that's actually impacting people's lives. As you
mentioned,
I have people on my team that got to where they are by doing online training
and cohort training
to pursue parts of their career and their passions where they didn't have a
background.
And so the interesting points are Udemy started as really just marketplace by
Erin
Bali and a place for people to come to connect to instructors and instructors
to be anywhere in
the world that have expertise. And it just blew incredibly fast. It was huge.
And then the idea
was it came about maybe six, seven years ago, started- there was an interest to
package this
up and provide the best of the best courses to companies. And then very quickly
, the company
has grown nearly. It's almost closing out on $400 million a revenue. We went
public a company,
I guess a year and a half ago now, and the growth just found outstanding. For
the price point,
it's one of the best returns that organizations are finding for maintaining and
attracting key
talent, which is ultimately what our biggest cost line is at any company for
the most part
is really your talent. And the big companies are always scared about the
smaller, more nimbular
organizations, seeing their lunch and trying to steal their employees and beat
them. And the
small guys are just trying to compete with the big folks and trying to attract
the right talent
and get the skill sets. And so focusing in on actually for professionals, which
is both what
the marketplace does as Udemy business size does, certainly there's courses on
beekeeping and bread
making and all the rest of it that's out there. But really the heart and soul
is for any professional
that's learning to advance their career. And sometimes it's sponsored by an
individual. You just go
by course, sometimes it's by a manager, just for a small team. And sometimes
the CEOs and L&D leaders
and CHROs that are out there saying this is critical for the success of our
business and the
growth of our internal talent. So it's really exciting. It's the first real
company I feel like
there's a lot of meaning to, and it's attracted just a great group of people.
And it's just been a
lot of fun. And it's a fail like we're just scratching the surface of what's
out there,
based on what our customers are coming and asking us for.
Yeah, it's great. We're a cast means a 25 person company. And as we're growing,
one of the first
things that I spent my formative years in the army, you do lots of training in
the army. And we
really wanted to figure out how to train our internal employees. But like, you
just don't have
time for that. Like you don't have time to like create an agenda and set all
that sort of stuff.
And the idea that, hey, we can send a certain course to a bunch of different
people and then
they can take it and then we can get together and talk about it. Oh my goodness
, like what a
revelation. I wish I had this one. I was an officer in the army, you know, such
a cool go to market
because you have so many people that find it, done it in the past. Employees
can you can have
that sort of bottom up thing that happens. And you can also have the top down
motion. So I'm really
interested in your rev ops or how do you approach rev ops for a sort of go to
market like this?
And how do you organize your team? I think what I love about enterprise,
SaaS businesses in general is there is no one right answer. There's no one way
to do it. Nobody's
figured it out. There's so many talented people, for example, that went through
sales force back
in the day. But even a sales force, we made tons of mistakes. But there was a
lot of wind behind
our back and we made a lot of right decisions back then and the folks that
certainly most of
the folks that predated me and were more senior being had more influence. But
the idea being is
there's no one right answer. And so at any company I've been at, there's the
same goal as how do you
scale efficiently and effectively. And there's only so many levers you have,
but ultimately it's
which order do you pull those levers and when and what's the right time. And
that to me is this
algebraic problem solving that's really fun and allows every day to think about
, okay,
what should we be doing differently? How can we think about this? And for all
the other folks that
are in this world, there's a lot of great kind of support groups and so on. But
we're all thinking
and sharing ideas and trying to come up with what that next best thing. But
again, similar,
I think we're scratching the surface. The way that my realization is set up is
really there's a
couple different areas of because a functional operations role, which is
aligned to a business
lead. And so that person's responsible for working with the head of marketing
or the head of sales
or head of customer success. And the goal there is to be the person that knows
as much about their
business as those business leaders and to be somewhat of an advisor and provide
recommendations based
on the health of their business of what what they should be doing next. If they
had one more dollar,
where would they spend it? If they had one more hour, what would they do with
it? And it's about
figuring out what's the right element. And so we have those pieces, we have
more operational
sides of technology and processes. There's deal desk, enablement, deal desk
enablements,
functional ops, and the technology and processes. And so there's fundamentally
eight teams
within our GTMSO. And I said, there's probably room for a couple more. One area
that we don't
have yet is a product ops team. And I always say ops, but it's really, there's
a kind of sometimes
a connotation that ops is just more technology and administrative. And I feel
like there's
the value we try to focus on is really the strategy aspect of it, which is we
have access to a lot
of the data and what's going on. And the idea behind that is it's not just
about delivering a
dashboard. It's about just saying here, what does this mean? Which we'd be
doing and why and be grounded
in the data behind that answer. And so what's fascinating, what I like about
this in the role is
that when these organizations, these ops teams used to report into their
business lead, you had
this conflict of interest, you had this idea that if I'm reporting the sales
lead, it's hard to
challenge that person. And so the great thing about my role is that all I'm
thinking about is,
how do we increase the value of Udemy, not just one individual unit? Because
every decision you
makes then cascades through the other organizations. And so if you're going to
do something in marketing,
how does that apply to sales and the partners and customer success and product.
And so thinking
through all those lines and connecting it as far as listen, what our president
wants to do,
I'm trying to figure out how do we make that a reality. And or is there another
option. And so
it's exhausting on a daily basis because there's so many things out there. And
it's an exercise in
prioritization of what are the most important things we should be focusing on
an exercise in
alignment. I have this picture I use on a lot of slide decks when I talk about
my team, which is
just a bunch of geese flying in alignment. And then a bunch of geese running
into each other. And
it's that's fundamentally that because there's no one right answer, the idea is
, are we directionally
all going the same direction? And is everyone on board? And there's a statistic
out there that
1% or less than 1% of VC funded enterprise B2B companies make it to $100
million revenue,
because it's really hard to scale. One of the ways I believe, and I'm not the
first person to say
that, is that I think it's around the alignment of leadership and the
communication across those
teams and making sure they're all working to the one communal goal. And where I
see a lot of challenges,
particularly in companies I work with that are on the smaller side, is they
haven't really got that
alignment. And so each individual department heads down and folks on building
and they pick their
heads up and they're very disparate. And so part of this is listen, we know it
might not be the right
answer, but it's definitely over this way. It's definitely not over that way.
And so my team is
aligned to different parts of the business, but ultimately the communal goal is
what should we be
doing next to make the company scale? Because you blink an eye and all of a
sudden you double
triple your size, and it's tough to go back and retroactively build something
to scale. And then
once you get too big, that's when companies start to falter. And so there's
this constant view from
my team about what's out there, what we're thinking about next quarter, next
year, and what you'll
be doing today to make sure that we're successful then. Love the geese
alignment thing, because that's
what it feels like a lot of silly geese that align. Anything unique about your
RevOps
organization? I know like you to me, obviously very unique company you have. I
can't imagine the
website traffic that you all get just that alone makes it complex. I don't know
if there's anything
I think every one of us that I've talked to every other leader and that kind of
approaches a little
bit differently about how they group things together. There is a definitely
unique aspect where we have
individuals, individual professionals coming into the marketplace and looking
just for a course or
something just for themselves and then thinking about also like how would we
address that for
a Fortune 50 company that's interested in doing that. So there is an element of
balancing and trying
to underline the prioritization. So I think it's a little bit more complex than
just a typical
straight B2B enterprise company that's focusing on that. There's also another
element to you to
me which I think is very unique, which is our product are instructors. It is
the fundamental value
behind the organization. These incredible instructors that are everywhere in
the world creating these
incredible courses and iterating on those on an hourly basis to make sure that
they're always the
best and up-to-date. And so there's this other element too. It's not just a
product. Our product
is people. So how do we make sure that those folks can be as successful as they
can be? But as far as
how is orchestrated not too different, I would say. I think if I was at a
different company,
I might think about it very similarly in terms of the overall structure. But
there is a piece that
there's a whole other side to the business. One side is really more of an
individual professional
ones and enterprise professionals. You'd have to wear kind of two lenses as we
think about that.
And historically the company was kind of focused on two different things and
that's very quickly
becoming one. And we're finding a lot of customers are like, why did you decide
to come into the
business side? And as a company, actually, you know what? Our CHRO took a
course three years ago and
loved it. And so we started talking about this. You know what? You got to go
talk to you to me.
And more often than not, then that's the thing. So there's this whole element
of this marketplace,
is this awareness engine. And allowing people to do things on their own. But
then when it comes back
to their broader careers, there's a lot of transference back and forth. And so
trying to support that
both from thinking as a consumer model and as more of a B2B model. There's a
few companies out
there that do that. But I think ours are really tightly aligned. And so I think
there's this
transference of once you're at one, you're in a career in a company, but your
career continues
outside of that company. So we have professionals coming and going as you know,
with one company
and then moving on their own and then arriving at another company. And so how
do we make them
successful? And what's that future for them of like, here's their skills that
they have.
How do we recognize that? Or how would a future employer want to think about,
oh, am I looking for somebody's resume or am I really looking for somebody's
skill set? And so
there's so many interesting ideas out there. And ultimately, there's a finite
number of resources.
And so a lot of this is just the prioritization. And it's a different topic
than it might
other be at another company. But I think fundamentally, a lot of our works tend
to be very similar.
I would say that there's a couple of things out there, which is some in terms
of where
Oregon lines to, which is under the strategy, which under the president of the
company,
versus sometimes I've seen it under a CFO, or sometimes it's under a CRO. And
what I worry about
in those instances is you're not still focusing on the broader picture. The
president just cares
about the success of the overall company, not just a department. Finance is a
great gatekeeper for us.
It's good to have them not as part of my boss or my team, because I can always
use them,
whether they like it or not, as my guardrail to say, no, this is all the
finance and policy.
And oftentimes finance isn't thinking about the strategy of the business either
. So alignment to
whomever is ultimately making those strategic decisions. So I have seen roles
pop up and other
folks were the reporting in different lines. I would fundamentally disagree
with that. I think
the more value is whoever is making the business case, that's where we're best
aligned, because we
can help provide the insight and the recommendations to make those decisions
for whoever that business
leader is. All right, let's get into our next segment. Rev obstacles, where we
talk about the
tough parts of rev ops was the hardest rev ops problem you've had in the past
year or so.
Man, it just it changes. I think the biggest one, and I think this applies to
fast-paced companies,
which is also why I love it. I can't complain because I think these are it's
the problems you
encounter because you're growing really fast. So you really can't complain
because they're good
problems. So it's constant prioritization and reprioritization as we grow. A
year goes by and
a blink of an eye. We think about when COVID hit. Okay, great. So how are we
going to think about
when that time period is and when that's going to end and how that's going to
impact the business.
And it was actually it was interesting. A lot of folks were taking time to
rethink about their
careers and retraining. And so we actually saw a huge spike in interest and
demand. And then we
had maybe about 30 minutes of calm, and then all of a sudden economic
considerations and wars
and everything started happening and supply blockages and everything is a
little bit different.
The challenge being is when you're building for scale and building over the
next year or two,
there's also so many of these unknowns, which for ultimately a period of maybe
like eight or
nine years prior, we didn't have a lot of major disruption, at least in the
technology space.
And now we're having it one after the other. And so I think the idea is, is
that still the
right direction? Is the geese still aligned and going? Is that still north?
That's I think probably
one of the biggest challenges that we've come through this. What's it look like
? I've been
able to have conversations with whom I would say are the smartest people in the
room. And they're
looking back and being said, I don't know, that's out of my control. There's
probably two people in
the world that know really the answer. And so just focus on what you know, what
you can control.
And so that's the idea is like there's so many shiny objects out there that we
can chase and
we can fix. My dogs and squirrels is another great example, right? You
constantly be chasing
off on those bringing it back down to like, what are real main priorities? If
we can do nothing
else, what does that come out down to? And I would say that's one of the more
persistent things that
I've continued to have to make. But certainly the macro conditions of what that
impact is going to
be. And with sales companies, you slow it down and it takes a while to grow
back up. And there's so
much potential for this business that I'm always more on the optimistic side of
saying, okay, so if
this whenever this starts creeping back up again, what levers do we pull to
help accelerate that?
And so that's the stuff that keeps me up a night or rather wakes me up early in
the morning. I can't
remember the last time I had to set an alarm. I wake up and it's like a million
ideas running
through my head, which is exciting. And as long as that continues, like this is
the right sort of
role for me. All right, let's get to our next segment, the tool shed where we
're talking tools,
spreadsheets and metrics, just like everyone's favorite tool qualified. No BB
tool shed is
complete without qualified. Go to qualified.com right now and check them out.
We love qualified
dearly. Go check out qualified.com. Okay, what is in your tool shed Noah?
We got everything. Let me tell you this, if you were a vendor and you didn't
sell to you to me in
the past six years, you missed out on a paycheck. We have a sales force
instance everywhere from
like gong, Marchetto, braise to sales loft, six cents linked to navigator. We
have gains
out on the sale that we have so many tools. It's more and less of a tech stack
and more of just a
name, a product and problem. We have it. This is a challenge. In fact, a few of
us got together a
few years back and we started meeting up regularly and we would have CEOs or
founders come and give
us their VC pitch not that give us the funding pitch, not the sales pitch. But
why should leaders
in the go to market and rev up space? Why should they be thinking about this
sort of tool what's
happening? Because what I found is, is it's really hard to keep up and I feel
like I'm not close to
as much anymore. And the challenge, if I want to go learn, I have to go talk to
somebody who's
going to refer me to their age, who's going to talk to this. And so how do I
quickly digest that?
And that's a challenge that we all face. I try to pick and choose and talk to
friends we're looking
at and who's the next greatest thing. I think there's a scratch in the surface
of those things.
And I really want to, I don't think we're using any of our tools optimally. I
think I hold all of
our tools to a greater standard than maybe they do themselves. I have
expectations. I think if I
leave this job, I may have to still build something. Because I think everyone's
kind of like gnawing
around the edge of it, but like kind of getting at the core of ultimately what
we want to know
as an organization is what's our number going to be next year? What's it going
to be our next
quarter? What's it going to be the quarter after that? And then you start
clicking into it and
like what are the things that contribute to that that we can actually affect
today to help us get
there? Whether it's on the customer side with customer retention or customer
health or is it on the
pipeline side? Is it on the handoff side between the inside sales and AEs? All
these areas to look
and I feel like everyone's sending me a bunch of data. But I want to know like
tell me who my
best like going tell me who my best reps are. Yeah, I get all the data like
tell me what a
best good great call looks like. I get all the data but then I have to go do it
myself. And so
there's a lot of circling in the market and I feel like there's going to be a
lot of a lot of
M&A this year in this space because there's limited real estate and there's too
many folks
trying to vie for that front system. We use a company called BoostUp for
forecasting. Prior to
that he's becoming Larry for a couple of guys. And I think that's kind of the
real estate because
that's what people are looking at every day. That's what your E-step is
reviewing to take a look at
is how are we doing on the quarter? How are we looking on pipeline? How are we
looking on coverage?
And then everything kind of backs into that and okay if this is down then tell
me why? Then how do
I break into that? Or if we need this then why? And so I find that very
interesting or the companies
are using Slack and just there's no interface. It's almost ask Alexa and you
get a response about
your account status or something like that. I love that idea because just
interacting with
a chatbot versus having to go to a tool would be a nirvana in my stage. So
there's a lot of stuff,
a lot of data, not as much prescription or somebody telling me what's what
really good is or where
I should review. But that's why I have an analytics team on my staff to go and
dig in and try to find
those trends. It's exciting. If you're in that space that's selling to the go-
to-market tech stack
it's going to be a wild ride. I think there's going to be a lot of cool things.
People are
starting to really get it. And so I'm excited about what there is. I just hope
that I'm aware
of what that is so that I can have those conversations with folks. And it's
tough. I get a lot of emails
as we all do in our inbox. And sometimes I do send an email back saying I wish
you all the best
of your own your career. I don't know what this means. I don't know what you're
saying. I don't
know what this terminology is. Don't use a script. Just speak in English. And
what core value are
you trying to do? You think I care about that you're trying to touch on. If
people did, I would
probably buy more stuff. Honestly, it's a travesty, but everyone's got to cut
their teeth. I guess.
Any metric that really matters to you that maybe it matters to other people,
maybe it doesn't
matter as much, but something that you are a couple of things that you single
out.
There's a metric that we kind of came up with using one of the vendors a few
companies ago.
And there was this element when I was starting sales strategy, which was I
realized that I was
spending more than half my time talking to the marketing team and focusing on
pipeline.
So what I realized very quickly is that what's happening today, what's actually
transacting right now, we have very little control. We have a little bit of
control for
but mostly in the negotiation aspect. But you really have control with things
in the future.
And so one of my favorite metrics is pipeline coverage. Coverage and conversion
have a lot of
interesting terminology depending on what you talk to. But in my world, it's
how much
pipelines you have today that's scheduled to close a certain time in the future
And how are you tracking to that? Because that's one of the best early
predictive signals
as to the health of your business. You can look at how your bookings, what your
revenue
look like right now. You can look at how people are generating pipeline in
general,
but then how are you looking out for future quarters? And in our rule, I think
that's one of the things
that we really have to focus on is trying to anticipate what that's going to
look like. And so
being able to extend your prediction model out there is something that I think
is very powerful.
So pipeline coverage is it predicting churn and predicting where we're going to
end a quarter
at with from a booking's perspective? Obviously my favorite number, if you're
going to go with a
favorite metric, because you have a great team that's doing that and they're
getting pretty
precise in figuring this out. And I would say the second, that probably is that
number two,
the number three would be it's this football field that I stole from back in
the finance days,
we're looking at an M&A and you're doing valuation, which is effectively just a
bunch of different
methodologies to identify a metric. And you kind of line them all up in
American football field,
and you kind of see where there's overlap. So if I'm trying to do a prediction
on where we think
we're going to end the quarter, I have about seven different methodologies that
help me determine
where I think we're going to end up. And using all of those to kind of triang
ulate,
what's that kind of band of where that confidence level is? That one is the one
that it's one of
the first things I put together to accompany when I go there, because it gives
me the all the different
inputs, whether the sales team may think it's higher, whether the analytics
says it's going to be
lower, you can all those together and see where the overlap is. And so I love
doing that. I call it
a football field. There's probably a better term for it, but it's a great way
to understand how
the business is shaping up. All right, let's get to our final segment here.
Quick hits, quick
questions and quick answers, quick hits. Now, are you ready? I'm ready. Number
one, if you could make
any animal any size, what animal would it be and what size? So being in the Bay
Area, I'm fascinated
with sharks and my wife from Florida, and I've become fascinated with all
igators. I would love
to take one of those and have just like a miniature, having a aquarium with a
bunch of tiny little
sharks swimming around. That would be awesome. That would show there's some
random stuff, but like
far like just personal entertainment to have something that's great white, but
it's six inches
long. So do you have a rev ops prediction for the future? So it's interesting,
the rev ops name,
I feel it was stolen because rev ops already existed. The new ops was this
organization
that sits in finance at rev ops team is the team that's usually doing like the
Rev Rec stuff.
So I shifted to the go to market strategy in ops, which I think is a better
representation. I know
why rev ops got there is because the revenue leader and the sales leader naming
convention.
I would say maybe it shifts more towards that. I would say the trend within the
teams is that
probably more of them aligned to the business strategy leader. And I think it
continues to grow
as an organization. I mean, I'm biased, right? Obviously I'm talking about my
job, but I think
in terms of what we're able to see across the business and the advice we have,
because of that,
I think is very impactful. And I think the folks that are coming into this
business come from all
walks of life, all variations and whatever. And I think that also adds to a bit
of the creativity.
I think just continues to grow. I think it becomes a mainstay. The tools that I
'm seeing that sell
to this are also, I've seen them growing too, because they're getting traction
in non-tech
companies that are starting to grow these roles. I think just continue growth.
Last question here. What advice would you have for someone who is newly leading
rev ops or a
go to market ops team? That's a great question. If you're newly leading, I
would say fundamentally,
I would start as a leader, I would go into every of the areas that is
generating
data for you. So if you have a pipeline model and operating model, I would go
back and reconstruct
those yourself. Because at the end of the day, you are accountable for what
they say. And back
when, again, another reference back to the finance days, but anytime you took
over a project,
you always started from scratch, because you don't know what was in there
before and you don't know
that's going to impact. And so as a leader, you need to be sure and you need to
be able to go into
the details into the weeds when you need to and challenge your team, because
you've been there,
you've done that, and they're still learning and for you to be a best guide for
them and helping
them along the ways to be able to challenge them. But if you haven't gone
through that path and done
it, you got to jump into the details. So in this spectrum, there's so many
different parts that
could be rolling into you. Chances are you didn't come from all of them. You
probably came from
one avenue. So really understand your weak points of where you have the least
amount of experience
so that you can get into the weeds. You can have the competent conversations,
because you're only as good as your team if you're not helping leaving the team
and they're going
sideways. So that would be my best advice for everyone. Noah, thanks again.
Great chatting with
you for our listeners. Go check out Udemy for Business. Go just get it for your
team. Get some
courses going. If you haven't already, you're going to thank yourself. No, any
final thoughts?
Anything to plug? Nothing to plug. It's great to be here. I love that there's
all these organizations
that are focused on this world and how to get people in there and how to be
successful. And
I would say the plug is to all those folks out there is make sure you're
focusing on the strategy
and not the operations I don't make sure you're thinking about what this means
and how to convey
it. Other than that, had a great time. Thanks for much for having me. Awesome.
Thanks Noah. Take care.
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