Why Telemarketing is Dead
On this episode, Michelle describes the importance of cross-functional teams for optimizing revenue. She explains which structures and cadences have worked best for her in her career, and how she’s found success in RevOps.
[Music]
Welcome to Rise of RevOps. I'm the new page on CEO of Caspin Studios.
Rise of RevOps is always presented by the great people qualified.
Go to qualified.com to learn more and I am joined by a special guest Michelle.
How are you? I'm well. Thank you, Ann. Thanks for having me on the show.
Yeah, excited to chat, excited to talk RevOps, excited to talk six clicks.
So let's get into it. First role in RevOps? First role in a global revenue
position, for sure.
Pretty exciting time to come in, own revenue, and oh by the way, own RevOps,
and we're going to get
into all that stuff. Tell us a little bit about six clicks. Yeah, thanks. Six
clicks as a company
was founded in 2019, headquartered in Melbourne, Australia. We are a GRC SaaS
platform. GRC stands
for Governance Risk and Compliance. So we help risk and compliance in
information security
practitioners, not only manage their cybersecurity programs, but also manage
their regulatory obligations
and manage risk for the organization, as well as be able to report up on their
risk posture to
their board and investors, clients, etc. And what types of customers do you
have?
The GRC space has been around for about 30 years, Ian. And so it's fairly
mature, particularly in
the US market. I think the UK is second in terms of reg tech maturity, and then
Australia would be
third, just in terms of embracing technology and getting off of spreadsheet to
manage a GRC program.
The types of clients that we have historically have always spent more regulated
markets,
but we're moving away from that. I think, you know, at this point, most
organizations realize that
they are potential to be under attack or be held by some sort of ransomware
threat. They also have
obligations to their board and their clients to instill confidence and trust.
And so organizations
are now moving away from a nice to have to a need to have so that they can
really get their arms
around not only managing the complexities of regulatory compliance, but also
being able to
report out an instill confidence. And I was going to suggest that you probably
haven't heard on your
show. I'd be surprised if you had that risk practitioners or information
security practitioners
have ever been involved in rev ops. But if they aren't, they should be because
six clicks and GRC
as a concept, as a methodology, has the ability to enable driving revenue. So
it's a business
enabler. So for an organization, it invests heavily in information security
best practices,
as well as a certification like ISO 27001, for example, they actually then have
the ability to,
like I said, instill confidence in their business associates, their investors,
their board,
and their clients who want to know when they want the assurance that their data
is secure if they
give it to those companies. So without having the ability to manage that, I
think it puts an
organization at risk for growing or getting to their next objective.
And what is your definition of revenue operations? RevOps is really a cross-
functional discipline
that is designed to optimize revenue, both existing revenue in terms of
protecting it,
as well as growing your revenue stream. And when I say cross-functional, I mean
it really touches
every portion of the organization from the obvious sales and marketing, but
also customer success.
Back office oftentimes has to be involved in rev ops. And as I said, I think
information
security should play a role in that as well. Yeah, how do you think about rev
ops in your company?
Obviously, y'all are in a massive enterprise. So a lot of this stuff, you have
to have your
hands a little bit more in as a CRO. Yeah, I think being able to make metrics-
based decisions or
database decisions is critical in any size organizations, particularly those
that are smaller,
because you're running leaner with fewer people and not so deep pockets. So you
have to be a lot
more thoughtful and a lot more better informed about the decisions that you're
making. And I think
rev ops is critical to being able to bring that empirical data to the
conversation.
Yeah, I think about this all the time, where especially when you just don't
have as large a
data set, that there's just so much noise rather than signals, you're like, "Oh
, is that
whatever 100 accounts versus 1000 versus whatever?" Or whatever the thing is,
just to have to take
sweeping generalizations from the data is perhaps a fool's errand.
Not just generalizations, but also vanity metrics. So I think a lot of people
get caught up in only
portraying the metrics that reflect well on them, because they're protecting
their jobs or they're
trying to promote the organization to outsiders or investors, where I think the
metrics become
really critical and invaluable is if you're able to derive real findings from
them,
right, findings that can inform those decisions and help you pivot if you're
not doing something
properly, or if there's a market segment that isn't responding as well as you'd
like it to,
then those metrics give you the ability to make those decisions.
So obviously you don't have like a huge rev ops team or anything like that. How
do you think
about staffing rev ops and making sure that you have a function that can exist?
I think about it in terms of our tech stack that we use to a large degree,
bringing in individuals
that have the ability to run the applications that we rely on pretty heavily
and manipulate
those applications to meet our needs for reporting and information the way that
we need that information
depicted. So that experience, that skill set will drive the staffing of the rev
ops team.
Yeah, do you feel like if you're a smaller company like y'all or like a startup
or, you know,
whether it's series A startup or series B startup or someone like that, how do
you think about
like investments in rev ops and like when should you do stuff like that?
It's going to vary. I think organization by organization Ian, I was fortunate
when I joined
Just shy of two years ago that we already had a CRM in place when I came in. We
didn't have a lot
of historical data because the company is so young, but we had at least one
year's worth of data.
So we've since obviously built on that. We now have three years worth of data
that we can leverage,
but I think having a sales operations person is critical. We do have a customer
success team
and we track data like clients that are at risk of churn, clients that have
churned,
and we profile those accounts and those deals and those clients by quite a few
different data
metrics that we slice those. What type of account are they? Are they an advisor
? Are they a reseller?
Are they an end user? What point did they churn? What are we hearing from the
account? There's just
a lot of metrics that we keep and we've got several dashboards that we publish
and project a variety
of different people in the organization. All right, let's get into our first
segment, RevOps
equals. We talk about the tough parts of RevOps. Yeah, what's the hardest Rev
Ops role you face in the
US six months to a year? I think personally it was coming into an organization
that is headquartered
outside of the US and trying to operate within the US. It's the first time I've
operated in a global
role where the organization was outside of the US. Having to come in and use
Australian contracts
for other jurisdictions, whether it be the UK or the US, has presented some
challenges. I've had to
regionalize our contracts. I've had to really also come together with our legal
group and bring those
contracts into a more fair and balanced language model so that contract
negotiations don't drag on
and on and on for months and also meet the needs of the jurisdiction of the
client that you're
talking to or working with. Yeah, that's challenging. Is that something that,
something where you just
try to do a sprint, try to say like how do we fix this or is that sort of like
an ongoing thing
that constantly needs tweaking or adjusting? I think over time you learn the
call outs that
you're going to run into that become regular call outs, right? It almost as
though there are the FAQs
you can expect from every contract cycle. And so if you have enough of a
pattern that you've defined,
you can then take that to your legal group and say, "Okay, this situation comes
up in every single
negotiation that we're dealing with. Let's head that off at the pass and change
the language."
And I think ultimately it's about reducing the friction, right? Minimizing the
time to get a deal
closed by reducing friction and creating a more fair and balanced approach to
negotiating with
the legal team. Yeah, that was one of my questions is, is it just back office
paperwork type stuff
that holds things up or is it like real friction to getting deals done? Because
those two things
are coincide with each other. They can be like, "Yeah, you know, it's just kind
of a back off
from getting slow and out velocity." No, I think legitimate legal issues. The
things that we had
tended to run into before I started addressing this was limitation of liability
indemnification,
intellectual property, infringement, data privacy. Those were the key areas
that we would run into.
And then jurisdictionality or geographically related things such as the
limitation of liability,
cap, and insurance coverage translated to the currency that you're operating in
. Oh my god.
Yeah, so it was running into quite a bit of complexity. And I just sort of put
the kabosh on
that. I said, "There are ways that we can address this. This isn't rocket
science."
I love that. Talk about a rev-ops problem. That is definitely a rev-ops problem
. Really,
how come deals are slowing down? It's like, "Oh, the way that we're doing our
contracts with our
going through seven rounds of legal review because of the cost of the insurance
." So I've been through
all that stuff before signed up exactly how that goes. And that's absolutely
brutal.
And that's the last thing you want when you've got a happy customer who you've
been through a
full sales cycle with, which in and of itself may have taken some time. Last
thing you want to do
is drag it through the legal mud. You could just say that for your entire life.
The last thing you
want to do in any situation is drag anything through the legal mud. The lawyers
always disagree
with me on that, where they're like, "No, they want to add more mud." But yeah,
that's a good rev
obstacle. How do you balance supporting sales marketing and customer success
with a smaller team?
Very long days. You can't do it. I'm also dealing with multiple time zones. I'm
not lying when I
say the days are long. I start quite early in the morning working with clients
in the UK and in some
cases India and then late into the evening working with Australia. But
generally speaking,
again, just like the contracts issue, it's not rocket science. It's structure,
bringing structure
to an organization and defining a cadence. So creating some regular meetings
and touch points
and setting expectations of all of the team members and making sure to give
accolades where
they're due. A lot of people thrive on getting credit as they should and it's
free and it doesn't
take much effort. I'm a firm believer in making sure to give credit where it's
due.
Yeah, I'm curious as a CRO who's thinking about go-to-market, getting in front
of folks,
closing deals and then figuring out that the customer success side. When you're
balancing
the rev ops goals, you mentioned like sales ops as a key part of that. Are you
thinking about
things like, hey, let's prioritize our go-to-market closing deals with whatever
70% of our rev ops
bandwidth and then 20% CS and then 10% with additional things or how do you
think about
prioritizing when you are a resource constrained younger startup?
I hate saying this as an answer, but it is heavily dependent on what your long-
term objective is.
If your goal is to have some sort of an exit as an organization, then driving
revenue is the number
one priority. But I think organizations should consider at what costs they
drive that revenue
and that helps dictate the priorities. So if your entire goal is you've got to
get every deal in
the door you possibly can and damn the churn, it doesn't matter, then you drive
hard at revenue.
But most organizations who have investors and have a responsibility to those
investors really
try to balance that and so that dictates the priority for how you spend your
time.
Any other thoughts on rev obstacles or maybe a rev ops moment or any rev ops
moments that you've
made? Yeah, I would say if I could turn the clock back and do something
differently, when I joined
six clicks, I got pretty hard for having a BDR telemarketing team, outbound,
dialing for dollars
sort of team. Because we didn't have a dedicated marketing team here in the
States, I thought
this would be a good way to get some leads. And I learned pretty quickly and we
pivoted quickly
as well. We failed quickly on this one. Just don't buy that way anymore. And so
that whole
telemarketing concept I think is dead. It's a thing of the past. Buyers now buy
pretty much self-servicing
through digital resource and education online. Most CISOs do not take cold
calls. They don't
want to be reached out to via email. Although I will say we do have some pretty
strong response
and click through rates on our email campaigns. But nevertheless, the whole BDR
model didn't work
well. Understanding how buyers buy today and the need to develop digital assets
that they'll
consume prior to even having a conversation with you, I think is important. I
love that. That's a
great shout because I feel the same way. It's things that we hear a lot of. And
a similar sort of
thing that you just said is you're seeing those click through rates or you're
seeing people clicking
on emails and looking at that stuff that speaks to the pain. I mean, clearly
there's a massive pain
in the GRC space. Clearly, this is something as you mentioned is going from
nice to have the
need to have. So if it's a need to have people need to have it, right? They
just don't want to
be called on their personal phone. They just don't want to be called while they
're at the gym.
They don't want to be called while they're in 5,000 meetings. And the thing is
like most executives
look at their calendar and it's literally their Google calendar is stacked from
a sun up to sundown
with meetings. So when would you even reach them? And what are they going to do
? Call you back? I
mean, it's a crazy notion. If you're selling to someone else who has a phone,
like a pizza place,
and I would be seeing the data there, but if you're selling to senior
executives, like no chance.
Yeah, I totally agree. Yes. So I'm curious then, with that sort of knowledge of
mine,
what did you shift toward? More digital asset and trying to support the buyer's
journey,
the various stages of the journey with a variety of resources. So we've got a G
RC buying guide that
we've put together that has active links in it, which gets them to even more
data like an ROI
calculator. We have started soliciting reviews from our clients so that buyers
can go online and
look at reviews of other users that have leveraged the platform. So we're
really investing heavily
in some of those areas. Interesting that a lot of those things would be
potentially like a
CMO function or a marketing function. Seems like you see revenue as a little
bit more fluid with sales
and marketing. Is there like a more joint go-to-market motion? Is that fair to
say? I mean, it seems that
way from the way you talk about it. It is today. It is. I think at some point
we're going to hit a
maturity milestone and that'll be decoupled. Our CEO is also actually quite
active in our
marketing, both from a campaign development standpoint, ad development, as well
as he himself
does quite a few interviews, podcasts, and contribution articles and things
like that.
Very cool. All right, let's get to our next segment, the tool shed. We're
talking tools, spreadsheets,
and metrics. Just like everyone's favorite tool, qualified. It'll be to be tool
shed. It's completely
qualified. Go to qualified.com right now and check them out, especially if you
're in rev-ups. You
got to have qualified. If you're using Salesforce, go to qualified.com. Okay,
Michelle, what's in
your tool shed right now? The CRM that I inherited when I joined was HubSpot
and hadn't used it prior
to six clicks, but I've actually grown to really enjoy the platform. We used it
extensively for
not just tracking deals and managing forecast pipeline, but all of our ad
campaigns, event
campaigns, and so forth, run through HubSpot, as well as lots of reporting and
dashboarding
capability and collaboration. I think it's a great collaboration tool. That's
our CRM.
Sales Intel, we use Zoom info for Sales Intelligence, of course, Linked. And
then I've been
researching recently RFP response solutions. There are several of them there,
but we try to avoid
RFPs, but they're not entirely avoidable. And when you do have to respond to
one, they tend to be
really time consuming. So these tools will allow you to replicate previous
responses and give you
the ability to, I would say, shape 80% of the work off by repurposing some of
the responses you've
already delivered in previous RFP responses. That's cool. Yeah, so I'm really
looking forward to
moving forward with that. And then the last thing I use is actually, this is
for the interview process
of finding good salespeople, which is always a challenge for sales managers
looking to hire.
I use an online assessment tool, sales assessment tool, that takes into
consideration. It's not a
psychological analysis of any sort, but it does take into consideration how an
individual themselves
buy. So let's say you, Ian, you're making a decision on a large purchase,
whether it be a home or a car
or a piece of land or a vacation. How do you consider buying that large item?
Do you give it a long
time to think about it? Do you do a ton of research? Or do you just first thing
that comes along that
you really like, you jump in and make the decision? Based on how you buy, you
will also sell that
same way. So you'll either allow people very long time to consider, think it
over, look at
competitors, look at alternatives, wait for the sale to happen, the discount
versus you're going to
try to drive to closure because you use yourself operating that way. So those
are the types of things
that this sales assessment tool looks for. And then among other capabilities, I
look for several
attributes that are must-haves in sales candidate for me. That's a really
helpful tool.
What metrics matter to you? Well, as I mentioned, I do try to avoid the vanity
metrics. I think
using leading indicators is really critical. So things like number of meetings
per week,
number of deals created in a month, number of quotes going out the door,
probabilities,
excuse me, close ratios, deal velocity, those are the types of things that you
can use to get a fairly predictable picture of revenue, at least in the six
month term, I'd say.
We're about something that you wish you could measure, maybe a blind spot.
I wish that there's a way to get more data about losses. That's usually the
biggest area that any
organization struggles in. I don't think that we're unique in this, in that
respect. Knowing
competitors, you're up against what the competitive landscape looks like. You
can generally find out
some information about that, but if you lose, it's nearly impossible to get
that client back to the
table to explain what could have tipped the scale in your favor or why it didn
't go your way.
And that's really important information from a learning standpoint. So I'd say
that's the biggest
blind spot. That's more from traditional sales standpoint. I guess from a rev-
op standpoint,
if you don't have the proper leading indicators that I mentioned, that's it
makes it
near to impossible to make empirical decisions. And then you're just really
kind of relying on
gut instinct with some data. We just did a really cool episode that hasn't come
out yet about when
loss analysis is going to be very fun. We talked with the team, they closed and
they shared a bunch
of data about when loss and essentially whatever the rep puts in as the reason
why a loss is usually
not right. Yeah, I can believe that. Yeah, pretty funny. Anything cool that you
're doing with data?
I know obviously it's again a early stage company, so you don't exactly have an
entire data science
team. I'm guessing that you're back in call, but I went through an exercise
just literally a couple
weeks ago where I expanded our pipeline to include a couple more stages. I
think I added three new
stages because what I had this sort of effect, what I would call just the easy
bucket effect going on
with the sales reps where they were dropping pretty much every deal into a
specific category,
but it was very difficult for me to understand truly how closeable that deal
was or how winnable
it was in the month. I added more granularity and I'm also forcing them to
using HubSpot workflows
to answer specific questions before they can even move a deal into the next
stage.
So they have to stop and think about what they're doing and actually
acknowledge that they've gotten
that deal through the next gate as it were. And then the other thing I included
in that workflow was
this concept of tagging within HubSpot, which is really cool, and we're using
it to identify
three different indicators on deals. One of them is closing within 30 days, so
this is a way to
just look at the pipeline and easily visually see which deals are coming within
30 days.
We've got a tag defined as a strategic deal. These are ones that are over 100
grand.
And then the third tag is whether or not a deal is in trials, so they actually
have their hands
in the tool. Presales. Very cool. Can you share a little bit more about how
many stages you have
now? Total that I love. I could talk stages all day. I love stages. I think it
's like one of those
things that the RevOps leader and CRO and the sales office person, everybody
disagrees on what the
stages should be. So I love talking stages. That's fun. I've got nine stages
before closed one.
Cool. Okay. Can you share generally what they are? I'll share 100% what they
are. So prospect
suspect is the first one. Lead or registered deal. So our deals don't start
necessarily when a lead
comes in. Qualified discovery demo is the next stage. Decision maker bought in.
Proposal sent,
approved for purchase. Vendor onboarding, contracting procurement, and then
closed one.
Yeah, that's interesting. So you have so many post commitment there. Yeah.
Because of procurement
and all the stuff that goes into that. That's fascinating. So which ones did
you add?
So I added under onboarding and approved for purchase because generally
speaking, most of the deals
we're doing these days are all net new logos. So we're not in these accounts
already. And so
there is very much a vendor onboarding component. And that's one of the things
that wasn't being
accounted for previously that was creating delays. What I've seen with this is
that
get massive delays potentially. And the deal still usually almost always closes
, but it really
messes up your forecast. You obviously miss a month, miss a quarter, whatever.
Because of those
vendor onboarding pieces and the procurement. And I don't know if you feel this
way, but procurement
right now in the current market is under way different scrutiny than it was
obviously a year
or two years ago. So it's just an extra layer of procurement. There's times
where like that
can actually kill a deal now where I feel like years ago, like procurement's
probably not killing
most deals. They're going to ask for a discount, but they're not going to kill
it.
So true, Ian, I had a situation last month where we literally on a Friday were
told,
budgets there, it's been approved for going in for signature tonight and I'll
send you the signed
contract on Monday. Monday rolled around. They said, yeah, we went in for
signature and we
literally were told that it was reneged. So they lost budget.
We've seen the same thing. Everybody's in agreement, decision maker, senior
leader,
everybody all the way to the top. And then procurement pulls the plug. So I'm
going to finance it.
Nope. Yeah, there's so much contraction going on right now in the market. And I
think it's going to
be that way for some time. And we're heading into an election year that's
typically
cause for concern with organizations or it's paralyzing, I should say, in terms
of decision making.
Yeah, that's interesting. It's a really interesting piece because I think that
those final few stages,
I don't know if you have like percentage numbers associated with those final
few stages, but
it's got at least shave off a couple of percentage points for each of those
later stages.
We do. Yeah, we definitely advance a deal into a higher probability when they
're in those stages,
but they're still not done. It's not a foregone conclusion.
Yeah. And you had their thoughts on that stage stuff. Oh, you mentioned that
there was like
certain things that they have to answer when they go into those. Is that just
like something in the
CRM that they have to answer like a question or how does that work? Yeah. So if
a rep wants to advance
a deal into the vendor onboarding stage, the have to answer is a security
questionnaire necessary
because we ourselves are being assessed by customers for our security posture.
And then they have to
answer and turn to remember the other one, vendor onboarding forms, I believe
is the other question.
And it's really we're not soliciting specific data from them. It's just a
reminder that, hey,
you need to go make sure these things are happening before the steel gets
dropped into this category.
Is this like one of those things that I always wonder who should do what for
these things?
Because gosh, I think there's just more room for even more specialization with
this like
when does onboarding happen? Who's in charge of onboarding? When does the like
account manager
come in? Or if you keep it with an A or however they're structured to just like
knock out some
of these admin tasks? But it's like at the end of the day, like they ain't
closed until it's signed.
Every AE on earth knows that. So if you want this thing to get signed, seal,
deliver, you got to
make sure that stuff is done. Yeah, no question. One thing we talked about this
idea of cybersecurity.
Now that fits into RevOps. What do you think? Should RevOps people be thinking
about cybersecurity?
How should they be thinking about cybersecurity? I think RevOps people are
usually on the receiving
end of cybersecurity measures because they're employees in an organization
where they have to
read and attest to certain policies like an acceptable use policy or mobile
device policy
or those types of things. So generally speaking, RevOps people aren't exposed
beyond their security
training that they get at their new employee onboarding or once a year
thereafter, which is a
requirement of most regulations and most best practices. They say you have to
have security
awareness training for your employees. You also have to publish your policies
and the employees
have to attest that they've read them. But conversely, I think information
security practitioners should
be thinking about revenue and how to speak to the business about driving
revenue based on
their own information security program. One of the things that I've heard from
a couple different
CISOs is that they tend to wear a target on their back because when there's a
breach, not if,
when there's a breach, they're the first guy out the door. So one of the ways
to protect your
position and shore up the fact that you're valuable to the organization beyond
just protecting the
organization is to create this story of foundational trust. As an organization,
these are the things
that we have done to ensure that the data of our partners and the data of our
customers and the
data of our investors is safe and secure. And if you can affirmatively state
that, then companies can
take on new projects. They can release new products in the market. They can go
into a new
market segment that they've been considering for quite a while. They can make
investment
decisions, so on and so forth. So I think it's actually liberating to have that
awareness and
understanding of a strong risk posture, assuming that the CISO is managing you
to a strong
risk posture. One thing also too that RevOps people need to like out from a
security standpoint,
it's just obviously first-party data is so important now. And it'll be
interesting to see
how RevOps people are going to be able to leverage their data, leveraging third
-party data,
cookies and all that stuff. It'll be fascinating to see what we can and can do
going forward,
because I think it's going to be pretty different. Any other tool stuff you'd
mentioned, I like that,
the RFP stuff, after being in a couple of those this year, and you're right,
man, I wish I could
take 80% of my time back on those. We can go back retroactively and do it. Any
other things that
you want to invest in or things that you want to look at investing in, I know
it's when you're a
small company too, it's like, or when you're a growing startup, you're like,
there's so many
more things that you want and you need to figure out how to weave in there. So
there are areas that
you're looking at. There are a few other small applications that I've heard
about. We use an
application called Kiflo for our partner portal. It allows our partners to do
deal registrations.
And then we have another application that we use called Thinkific, which is for
our six-clicks
academy. So we do online self-based training courses for our customers and
partners. And then
there's some other things that I have my eye on, clay.com. It's essentially
gives you the ability to
create consistency around meetings, note-taking and what questions were asked
and so forth.
It's almost essentially like a note taker. It makes the reps better informed.
So that one's
actually quite interesting to me. I've got that on my radar. I haven't done
anything with it yet,
but keep it an eye on it. Cool. Very cool. All right, let's get into our final
segment. Quick hits.
Here's a quick question with quick hits. Quick hits. I shall learn you right
now. I'll try to me.
If you could make any animal any size, what animal would it be and what size?
You have absolutely stumped me on this one, Ian. I even asked my husband
earlier today,
how do I answer this question? And it was, we just had a good laugh about it. I
have a 16-pound dog,
so he might be offended if I supersized any other animal and brought them home
because he thinks
he's a big dog. How about your favorite book podcast TV show, something you're
checking out?
Ooh, that one, let's see. I read a sales book recently by the HubSpot Zero and
I can't remember
the title. Hold on, I can look at that for you. I got you. Was it the sales
acceleration formula?
Yes. That was a really fantastic book. What's the gist? Really collaborating
closely with your
marketing team, marketing department, and this particular CRO used to be an
engineer in a prior
life. And so he brought a lot of his measure twice cut once philosophy to sales
and nothing he did,
no decision he made, no hire he made, was done without a lot of analysis and a
lot of thought
and a lot of discussion about it with database decisions, data-driven decisions
, operating
in a vacuum without the collaboration of marketing or without the collaboration
of the other
business organizations really just makes you ineffective. So I'd say that that
was probably the
biggest takeaway for me and just the way that they went to market with the
digital assets and the
blog posts and volumes of content that isn't necessarily related to their
product. It's just
content that's enticing and that draws people in that's been hugely effective
for them.
You have a best piece of advice for someone who is a CRO trying to figure this
whole thing out.
Yes. I think instinct without context is futile. Instinct without data is
futile. So
while it's important to follow your gut, I think having data is critical. You
can't operate about it.
Show, it's been awesome having you on the show. Thanks so much for joining. For
our listeners,
if you need that go give an elbow to your CSO and say check out six clicks for
our GRC software.
Really cool. Any final thoughts? Anything to plug? Prioritize finding ways to
make improvements
in your organization that'll eliminate the need to discount. Couldn't agree
more, but it's so hard
and then procurement wants to discount. Everybody wants to discount. It's crazy
times. I don't know
what you do. Sell value. Sell value. Thanks Ian. It's been a pleasure.
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